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God Proven to Exist According to Mainline Physics

Worship me.

That's what theMark pointed out. Worship me.

Worship me.

This is a very compelling argument, especially since it's been repeated three times, therefore it must be true.

Then again, someplace later in this thread, someone mentioned porn. Which is a compelling argument all by itself.

X, before I start with the worshipping, I need to to know your theocracy's stand on this topic. Will believing and the rise of the singularity bring about free porn, as did the rise of the internet? ;)
 
I disagree with this.

I think that so long as we don't destroy ourselves, or get pwned by some cosmic event, a million years would be waaaaay more than enough.

Well, some people believe (in the absence of strong evidence, of course) that the brain may be in principle unable to completely comprehend itself...that it would take something MORE complex than a brain to fully understand a brain.

I tend to agree with this until I see evidence to the contrary.

(Of course, it may be possible to iteratively design supercomputers that could understand the brain, but then it would be the supercomputers that understand it, not us.

Pray that they let us live.)
 
I'm not sure if this has been stated yet, but I really didn't feel like reading 83 posts.

I just find it funny how people try to use science to prove the existence of a god. It's funny because even if you're successful as it and you prove that a supreme being must exist, you still haven't proven that it actually cares one way or the other about us. So you still won't get the benevolent, all-loving god from the bible and other religious books. All you get is a super being that basically is everything, which is no different than stating that the universe exists.

I'm sorry but what is the difference between a god that only shows at best a passive concern about "its creations" and no god existing at all?
 
Of course, all of these arguments are moot, considering that almost every definition of God I've ever heard has God making the Universe, not the Universe making God, which is what is being postulated here.
Plus, shouldn't the title be "God proven to be possible sometime in the distant future, according to mainline physics"?
 
I'm not sure if this has been stated yet, but I really didn't feel like reading 83 posts.

I just find it funny how people try to use science to prove the existence of a god. It's funny because even if you're successful as it and you prove that a supreme being must exist, you still haven't proven that it actually cares one way or the other about us. So you still won't get the benevolent, all-loving god from the bible and other religious books. All you get is a super being that basically is everything, which is no different than stating that the universe exists.

I'm sorry but what is the difference between a god that only shows at best a passive concern about "its creations" and no god existing at all?
They are not trying to use science to prove god. They are using the guise of science to make their faith seem less insane.
 
Hi, Rika. Is that nihil ad rem imperative directed to me, or were you just speaking to the aether? If the former, I've read many books, as my above post partially demonstrates.
If true, either they were ill chosen or you have badly misunderstood what you have read. Or, of course, both.
 
Hi, Rika. Is that nihil ad rem imperative directed to me, or were you just speaking to the aether? If the former, I've read many books, as my above post partially demonstrates.
If true, either they were ill chosen or you have badly misunderstood what you have read. Or, of course, both.
While true, no need to double dip it - what I get for rushing off for a few minutes.
 
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Also, it occurs to me, that Tipler's God is nothing more than a repository of knowledge. What part of the argument shows awareness, or sentience?
 
Also, it occurs to me, that Tipler's God is nothing more than a repository of knowledge. What part of the argument shows awareness, or sentience?

I think that his "God" only counts as a god to the people in the universes that it is simulating. It would indeed be omnipresent/omnipotent/omniscient as the simulation was concerned.

The universe that originally gave rise to "God" would probably just see it as totally awesome. I don't see what would stop the simulated universes from creating new "God"s however, causing yet another infinite regression(or progression?) of Gods.
 
X, before I start with the worshiping, I need to to know your theocracy's stand on this topic: Will believing and the rise of the singularity bring about free porn, as did the rise of the internet? ;)


How much free pron do you need? The internet already has plenty.
But yes, it is inevitable that a rise of this singularity (namely: me) will lead to more free porn.

After all, it will recreate everything, including the internet, wherein shall be contained free porn.




You see?

This is what happens when you say that "since something exists which is similar to my view of god, this thing therefore must be god."

I had a discussion with a friend of mine a while back, and he said that while he does not subscribe to a particular belief system, and find the concept of a personal god implausible, he things that there is a good chance that there is something out there. Deism, basically.

I asked him to describe what he meant by "something", since it's rather a vague term. And if you can't even begin to describe what it is you believe in, how do you come to believe it exists?

So he reworded his belief to be that there is "something greater than us" out there.

I agreed. There is.

I was even able to give him an example of such a thing: an elephant.

Thus, we both agreed that he worships an elephant.


Arbitrary definitions lead to nonsense beliefs.

Which is my point.

The fact that they used "X" as their placeholder just gave me a convenient way to point this out. And I get a little kick out of bad attempts at humor when people use my moniker in such a way.



-----



Worship me.


X


I'll send you cookies.
 
How much free pron do you need? The internet already has plenty.
But yes, it is inevitable that a rise of this singularity (namely: me) will lead to more free porn.

After all, it will recreate everything, including the internet, wherein shall be contained free porn.




You see?

This is what happens when you say that "since something exists which is similar to my view of god, this thing therefore must be god."

I had a discussion with a friend of mine a while back, and he said that while he does not subscribe to a particular belief system, and find the concept of a personal god implausible, he things that there is a good chance that there is something out there. Deism, basically.

I asked him to describe what he meant by "something", since it's rather a vague term. And if you can't even begin to describe what it is you believe in, how do you come to believe it exists?

So he reworded his belief to be that there is "something greater than us" out there.

I agreed. There is.

I was even able to give him an example of such a thing: an elephant.

Thus, we both agreed that he worships an elephant.


Arbitrary definitions lead to nonsense beliefs.

Which is my point.

The fact that they used "X" as their placeholder just gave me a convenient way to point this out. And I get a little kick out of bad attempts at humor when people use my moniker in such a way.



-----



Worship me.


X


I'll send you cookies.
But would thy free porn be without spam, or tolls, or Trojanz or other viruses?
 
All the particle accelerators in the world would take thousands of years to produce enough anti-matter to illuminate a light bulb.

But I'm sure by 2030 they will have doubled, perhaps tripled production!

But! But! In Angels and Demons they were going to blow up the whole Vatican using anti-matter!! Are you saying this book isn't factually acurate!?
 
Actually, Tipler does accept the idea of multiple universes. However, that is beside the point. I reviewed his last book (whose title escapes me just now) for Skeptic and found that he sees both the initial singularity at the beginning of the big bang and the omega point at the future end of the universe as two of the three persons of the Trinity. He also sees the origin of evil, the "fall" if you will, as beginning at the point when predation began - which he sees as the Cambrian period. He also sees Jesus as a double X male (i.e. XX as opposed to XY) as a way to "scientifically" justify the virgin birth. Further, he also has some kind of "scientific" rationale to explain the immaculate conception.

Given all this, I would find any "proof" he might tender of the existence of God from physics to be highly suspect.

And below was my review of your review:

----------

Tim Callahan in his review "The Physics of Nonsense" (eSkeptic, August 1, 2007) disputes Tipler's theology contained in The Physics of Christianity (PoC). One of the world's leading theologians, Prof. Wolfhart Pannenberg, defends the theology of the Omega Point Theory (OPT) in the articles "Modern Cosmology: God and the Resurrection of the Dead," Innsbruck Conference, June 1997; and "God and resurrection--a reply to Sjoerd L. Bonting," Gamma, Vol. 10, No. 2 (April 2003), pp. 10-14.

Callahan errs in claiming that Prof. Frank J. Tipler's writings on the OPT are motivated by Christianity. Tipler has been an atheist since the age of 16, yet only circa 1998 did he again become a theist due to advancements in the OPT which occured after the publication of his 1994 book The Physics of Immortality (PoI). And Tipler even mentions in said book (pg. 305) that he is still an atheist because he didn't at the time have confirmation for the OPT. Yet Tipler's first paper on the OPT was in 1986 ("Cosmological Limits on Computation," International Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 25, No. 6 [June 1986], pp. 617-661).

What motivated Tipler's investigation as to how long life could go on was not religion--indeed, Tipler didn't even set out to find God--but Prof. Freeman J. Dyson's paper "Time without end: Physics and biology in an open universe" (Reviews of Modern Physics, Vol. 51, Issue 3 [July 1979], pp. 447-460; can be found as the file dyson.txt on Anders Sandberg's Sweden-domain website aleph).

Further, in a section entitled "Why I Am Not a Christian" in PoI (pg. 310), Tipler wrote, "However, I emphasize again that I do not think Jesus really rose from the dead. I think his body rotted in some grave." This book was written before Tipler realized what the resurrection mechanism is that Jesus could have used without violating any known laws of physics (and without existing on an emulated level of implementation--in that case the resurrection mechanism would be trivially easy to perform for the society running the emulation).

So Callahan gets the motivational causation in reverse. Tipler's present Christianity derives from following the known laws of physics. Christian theology is preferentially selected due to the fundamentally triune structure of the Omega Point (OP) cosmology and due to existence having come into being a finite time in the past, hence deselecting the other sometimes-triune religion of Hinduism.

Callahan accuses Tipler of using "straw man arguments to dismiss those who might disagree with him," i.e., "those nasty atheists" (Callahan's words). But such is not the case, as Tipler does not dismiss his colleagues. Tipler is merely pointing out the fact that many in the field of physics abandon physical law when it produces results they're uncomfortable with. He even gives a number of examples of this, of which two follow:

""
The most radical ideas are those that are perceived to support religion, specifically Judaism and Christianity. When I was a student at MIT in the late 1960s, I audited a course in cosmology from the physics Nobelist Steven Weinberg. He told his class that of the theories of cosmology, he preferred the Steady State Theory because "it *least* resembled the account in Genesis" (my emphasis). In his book *The First Three Minutes* (chapter 6), Weinberg explains his earlier rejection of the Big Bang Theory: "[O]ur mistake is not that we take our theories too seriously, but that we do not take them seriously enough. It is always hard to realize that these numbers and equations we play with at our desks have something to do with the real world. Even worse, there often seems to be a general agreement that certain phenomena are just not fit subjects for respectable theoretical and experimental effort."

... But as [Weinberg] himself points out in his book, the Big Bang Theory was an automatic consequence of standard thermodynamics, standard gravity theory, and standard nuclear physics. All of the basic physics one needs for the Big Bang Theory was well established in the 1930s, some two decades before the theory was worked out. Weinberg rejected this standard physics not because he didn't take the equations of physics seriously, but because he did not like the religious implications of the laws of physics. ...
""

And,

""
This past September, at a conference held at Windsor Castle, I asked the well-known cosmologist Paul Davies what he thought of my theory. He replied that he could find nothing wrong with it mathematically, but he asked what justified my assumption that the known laws of physics were correct. ...
""

For those and many more such examples, see Tipler, "Refereed Journals: Do They Insure Quality or Enforce Orthodoxy?," Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID), Vols. 2.1 and 2.2 (January-June 2003).

Callahan suggests that the universe's current accelerating expansion seems to obviate the OP. But as Profs. Lawrence Krauss and Michael Turner point out in "Geometry and Destiny" astro-ph/9904020, cosmological observations cannot tell us whether the universe will expand forever or eventually collapse.

Callahan also calls the multiverse an "untested and highly theoretical concept." (Although note that the physics of the OP itself are not dependant on a multiverse formulation.) As Tipler points out on pg. 95 of PoC, "if the other universes and the multiverse do not exist, then quantum mechanics is objectively false. This is not a question of physics. It is a question of mathematics. I give a mathematical proof of [this] in my earlier book [PoI, pp. 483-488] ..." As well, experiments confirming "nonlocality" are actually confirming the MWI: see Tipler, "Does Quantum Nonlocality Exist? Bell's Theorem and the Many-Worlds Interpretation" arXiv:quant-ph/0003146. Regarding Callahan's theological dispute on this matter, see Hebrews 1:1,2; 11:3.
 
. . .
Christian theology is preferentially selected due to the fundamentally triune structure of the Omega Point (OP) cosmology and due to existence having come into being a finite time in the past, hence deselecting the other sometimes-triune religion of Hinduism.

. . .

Surely you have to prove that no other religion is a "triune religion" else that one (or even ones) could be possibly be just a valid religion for selection as satisfying the Omega Point as Christianity. :rolleyes:

Like the one at: http://www.triune-being.com/ for example. :boggled:
 

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