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I have been turned (on nuclear reactors)

Besides that, spent rods are already only lightly radioactive.

Err the coating of the rods come out as medium level radioactive waste. The cores themselves are in high level territory.

If the transport vessels did break, you just pick up the ceramic pieces and put them back on the truck/train/whatever.

No. First problem is you don't just pick up bits of reactor rod. They need to be handled with care. Second problem is the amount of force needed to breach such a container would likely result in the rods being pulvurised and the soil around the container becomeing heavily contaminated.

I've been for nuclear power for a while now. I just do not understand the holdup, besides that for some odd reason people are afraid of it.

1)Finding enough uranium
2)building a fast breeder reactor that actualy works
3)Finding some workers who don't manage to screw up reprocessing to an impessive extent.


I'm afraid of coal.

The uranium released by coal burning is not a significant issue.
 
Is the issue of the waste really sorted out? What do they actually do with it? My feeling right now is that they´re not being particularly transparent about it...

Find a geologicaly stable chunck of rock (say greenland). Bury it. End of problem.
 
I cant speak directly for civilian power plant but naval nuclear power plants will outlast the ship that they power. If a power plant is being dismantled than its only because the ship its on is being decommissioned.

Magnox reactors have a lifespan of a bit over 50 years. No one is quite sure because the only way to find out if one is in a fit state to continue running is to dissmantle it.
 
The uranium released by coal burning is not a significant issue.
But the meltdown risk, man, think of the meltdown risk!

ETA: (I think he's referring more to the fact that pollution from coal plants is deadly)
 
Experence suggests otherwise. Putting off the storage issue has worked since 1956 I suspect it will be quite a while before people accept that the approach will not work indefinetly.
False, if you look at the double talk in both the Democratic platform and the Obama platform (and also at the history of votes and of measure on the issue of Yucca Mountain).

McCain platform: Build 45 new reactors by 2020.

Obama platform: Weakly pro nuclear "when and if the disposal issue is taken care of". (Whisper whisper: Hey, Sen. Reid, you still gonna kill that Yucca project, right? HAHAHAHAHA. So we'll just say we'll pro nuclear when and if the disposal problem is taken care of. They'll never figure that out. )

Got it?

Democrat leadership = Anti Nuclear.
Majority of Democrat Congressmen, Senators, and the American People, and the Republication part = Pro Nuclear.
 
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Joke. Coal on average kicks out more radation than nuclear so if you were only worried about radation then the amount of uranium in coal would be important.
 
I've been for nuclear power ever since I was little and first read about it. What I've read in all the years since then has only reinforced my personal endorsement of it (not that said endorsement is worth much, granted). Considering that the worst nuclear plant disaster in US history didn't kill or injure anyone, I'm amazed why people are so vehemently opposed to nuclear power. Not only are they opposed to nuclear electric plants, they're opposed to anything that has the word "nuclear" in it - including nuclear-powered satellites, which they seem to think will render Florida uninhabitable (moreso than it already is, anyway) for thousands of years if a launch fails. It's stupid.
 
Is the issue of the waste really sorted out? What do they actually do with it? My feeling right now is that they´re not being particularly transparent about it...

Warning, wall of text ahead:

Well first, you have to know what spent fuel elements really are. It's not a corrosive green goo that tries desperately to escape it's container, it's a high density refractory ceramic that is about as water soluble as a coffee cup; it is made of uranium dioxide fuel pellets containing fission products and small amounts of transuranics. It is encased in highly corrosion resistant zirconium cladding. For interim storage it is first cooled in spent fuel ponds and then placed in dry cask storage built like a tank. If someone were to deliberately puncture one(with a well placed shaped charge, say) all that could happen is that small amounts of the more volatile fission products would slowly escape out into the surroundings which would be immediately detected(apart from the massive explosion it would be easily detected on radiation monitors). It would be a very costly clean-up; but the expected death toll from something like that is zero because it won't just sit around for thousands of years exposed to water.

The problem with final disposal is that it's supposed to be final. It will be sitting there for hundreds of thousands of years and if it the many barriers are defeated and some of the more volatile isotopes are transported to the surface, the small elevation in background radiation counted over geological timescales could still cause some deaths accoring to the LNT hypothesis.

Now, it turns out that almost all the long-lived isotopes are transuranics(when separated it is called TRU waste), that is neptunium, plutonium, americium, californium and curium. These are all heavy elements and by adding a few more neutrons they can all either be fissioned(fuel. Turns them into mostly short-lived fission products) or transmuted into elements with half-lifes so long that they don't pose a significant radiological hazzard. This is not possible in a thermal neutron spectrum reactor such as an LWR; you can use up some of the plutonium-239 and plutonium-241, but even numbered-isotopes tend to accumulate. There are some optimizations that can be done in thermal reactors to burn up more TRUs, but if you want to burn it all up and transmute what little makes it through to less harmful isotopes you need faster neutrons.

Fast neutrons have not been moderated by repeatedly hitting graphite atoms, deuterium atoms or hydrogen atoms until they lose most of their kinetic energy. Typically this is imagined to be a sodium, lead or gas-cooled reactor, but potentially it could also be a molten salt reactor based on chloride(enriched in chlorine-37 to avoid needless production of radioactive isotopes). See fast neutron reactor on wikipedia for a list of currently operating, closed/cancelled, under construction, in design phase fast reactors.

When spent fuel is taken out of the reactor it is so active that it must be actively cooled. It is placed in a spent fuel pool where it sits for anywhere between years to decades. After a few years it can be moved to a dry cask where it can be passively cooled.

The US government de facto forced the utilities to accept deep geological storage at Yucca mountain and charged a fee to ultimately take possesion of the spent fuel at some point in the future. I say de facto, since while reprocessing is technically legal, the investment and expertice working on the various projects were destroyed by the stroke of a government beaurocrat's pen and it's very hard to convince anyone to invest many billions of dollars into something without a guarantee that it won't happen again. There's no problem just letting the spent fuel sit in casks until the political issues are resolved.

All civilian spent fuel elements in the US are stored at the reactor site. Mostly in pools but there's some dry cask storage.

France stores and reprocesses the entire country's spent fuel from all 54 reactors at a single facility in La Hague. The waste(fission products with at most 0.1% of plutonium) is vitrified(turned into glass); the plutonium goes into MOX fuel which takes another spin through the reactor. This can go on several times before the plutonium quality degrades too much to be used in new fuel elements. This TRU waste will either have to be disposed off in a more secure design than the vitrified fission products or be reused in more advanced reactor designs at some point in the future.

Sweden is working on simular model as the US. We're charging our reactors for their spent fuel, we're taking possession of it and storing it at the central interim storage facility in Oskarshamn called CLAB. Our deep geological disposal system KBS-3 is nearly finished. The system has several barriers, the dense oxide fuel pellets themselves, the cladding, a thick steel canister inside a copper canister, surrounded by bentonite clay burried 500 metres into primary bedrock in one of the least geologically active regions of the world. The clay protects against corrosion and buffers against rock movements, if a container is cracked the clay will prevent moisture from reaching the container. After 100 000 years the level of activity is similar to the uranium ore from which the fuel was originally produced.

There is a natural fission reactor at Oklo in Gabon. It operated intermittently 2 billion years ago in an ore seam moderated by water which would intrude, allow the ore to reach criticality, turn to steam and shut the reactor off. Under what we now would consider completely unacceptable disposal conditions, non-volatile fission products and actinides(uranium, plutonium etc.) moved only a few centimeters over those two billion years. I consider this a pretty strong indication of the level of danger posed by deep geological deposition of spent fuel.
 
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False, if you look at the double talk in both the Democratic platform and the Obama platform (and also at the history of votes and of measure on the issue of Yucca Mountain).

McCain platform: Build 45 new reactors by 2020.

Obama platform: Weakly pro nuclear "when and if the disposal issue is taken care of". (Whisper whisper: Hey, Sen. Reid, you still gonna kill that Yucca project, right? HAHAHAHAHA. So we'll just say we'll pro nuclear when and if the disposal problem is taken care of. They'll never figure that out. )

Got it?

Democrat leadership = Anti Nuclear.
Majority of Democrat Congressmen, Senators, and the American People, and the Republication part = Pro Nuclear.

I've never really seen the position of the dem leadership on this topic and you're a biased source but I think you're probably not conflating here. Most Nevadans are against Yucca Mtn and they should have a say but with the facts. I think, at this point, there is too much emphasis on alternative energy sources to the exclusion of nuclear. It isn't a popular position with many Americans as they have a negative memory of TMI and Chernobyl. People just don't want to deal with the thought of a nuclear meltdown (a very unlikely event but a possible one). The reality of nuclear has to be faced up to at some point.
 
We had a very lengthy thread on this a while ago, I may try to dig up the link. The conclusions as I remember them:

Breeder reactors as a cost-effective measure are pie in the sky. Nobody can show that these things work out to be a good buy in practise, and if they do fail there's a real risk it will be a very energetic failure. Some people think that they are awesome and we should throw lots of money into research anyway.

Fission reactors have their pros and cons, but there just isn't enough high-quality uranium ore in the world to run the world on fission reactors. Assuming reasonable improvements in renewable energy sources in the future they're not even clearly a better long-term investment, especially if you calculate the cost of disposing of them when they wear out. If we only build a few of them then they can work out cheaper, but the more we build the less efficient each one gets because of the finite fuel problem. (There are pie in the sky proposals to get uranium out of seawater and whatnot, again, nobody's shown hard figures that prove this is remotely cost-effective in practise compared to throwing up a wind farm or a wave farm).

The moral problem of disposal was a major dividing issue. Some people had no problem leaving waste behind us capable of killing people long after we are all safely dead ourselves, others saw it as sufficiently immoral to justify abandoning fission power.
 
Decommissioning CAN be expensive, but those costs need be put up against the environmental benefits over the lifetime of the plant. The Yankee Rowe plant was successfully decommissioned a couple of years ago and I believe all but a few acres have been released for public use. (Spent fuel is still stored in dry casks on site for now. Permanent storage of spent fuel is a political issue yet to be resolved.)

I'd recommend Petr Beckman's "The Health Hazards of NOT Going Nuclear" for a non-technical (and irreverent) treatise on nuclear power.
 
Breeder reactors as a cost-effective measure are pie in the sky.

Because uranium is cheaper than dirt.

Nobody can show that these things work out to be a good buy in practise, and if they do fail there's a real risk it will be a very energetic failure. Some people think that they are awesome and we should throw lots of money into research anyway.

LFTR.

Fission reactors have their pros and cons, but there just isn't enough high-quality uranium ore in the world to run the world on fission reactors.

Don't need high quality uranium. For every factor 10 you go down in ore grade you get approximately a factor 300 more minable uranium.

The price of uranium is currently a few dollars per barrel of oil equivalent, i.e. the price is so small as to be almost irrelevant compared to the price of enrichment, infrastructure, regulatory costs, interest etc. Nobody will pay 20-30% more for the plant if it cut costs of uranium from $3 per BOE to 3 cents per BOE.
 
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im getting turned away from the nuclear energy, as we still have found a proper way to get a grip on the waste.
 
Because uranium is cheaper than dirt.

Compared to breeders, renewables are cheap as dirt too.


Pie in the sky for now. Renewables are on the ground producing usable energy as we speak.

(Confused? Soylent is referring to a liquid-flouride thorium reactor, a next-generation fission power plant design which looks good on paper. Then again lots of things look good on paper. Either he's too lazy to type it out or he was hoping I'd say "LFTR lol wut?" and give him an excuse to play the appeal-to-authority card).

Don't need high quality uranium. For every factor 10 you go down in ore grade you get approximately a factor 300 more minable uranium.

...and it takes 10 times the energy to mine it and refine it and ship it, and it would take thousands of new reactors to meet the world's power needs, plus a proportionate number of new refineries, and they aren't that much better than renewables to begin with, and they produce nuclear waste, and they can be used to produce nuclear weapons. No thanks.

Counting their cradle-to-grave cost and risk, they might have a role providing base load supply in stable, peaceful nations, depending on how much better renewables get. If you can get over that moral hurdle about the long-lived nuclear waste, of course. The last thing the world needs is thousands more of the things.
 
P.S. Obama seems to have nuclear on the plate, he just appears to be letting the scientists and experts decide for once. I find this a refreshing change from presidents who were convinced they were scientists (Bush... "I KNOW BETTER THAN CLIMATE SCIENTISTS..."). Not that Wildcat or his ilk would ever adopt a 'wait and see' position before condemning Obama of course.
Maybe it's on the plate, but that plate will never leave the kitchen. Bank on it.

Experence suggests otherwise. Putting off the storage issue has worked since 1956 I suspect it will be quite a while before people accept that the approach will not work indefinetly.
Of course it won't work indefinitely, that's why no new nuke plants will get built until a storage site is ready. And if a site in the middle of a desert already laid to waste by multiple nuclear weapons tests is unacceptable then I contend no place on the planet qualifies to these people.
 
When I was a kid I lived very near the Cook County Forest Preserve's Red Gate Woods. It was an interesting place because this was where the remains of mankind's first controlled nuclear reaction at the UofC in 1942 by Enrico Fermi were dumped. I say "dumped" because there was only a foot or 2 of dirt on top of it. Back when I was a kid you could find the chunks of graphite laying on the ground there. It wasn't until 10 years ago or so that they even put a fence around the area.

Oh, how times have changed!
 
Because uranium is cheaper than dirt.

Nope. Price has been going up too. It's more to do with every fast breeder we have decent records of (basicaly everything other than the soviet BM reactors) haveing issues of one kind or another.


Reactors with coolants other than light water do not have a happy history.

Don't need high quality uranium. For every factor 10 you go down in ore grade you get approximately a factor 300 more minable uranium.

Source?
 
Of course it won't work indefinitely, that's why no new nuke plants will get built until a storage site is ready.

France and Japan would disagree.

And if a site in the middle of a desert already laid to waste by multiple nuclear weapons tests is unacceptable then I contend no place on the planet qualifies to these people.

Semipalatinsk Test Site. Rather more radioactive than any other proposed storage site and the money earned could pay for dealing with some of the problems caused by the existing radation. Kazakhstan said no though.
 

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