Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[Ladewig]

In my opinion, the best that any of us here can do for KK is to ignore her rantings.

More than a couple posters have stated that they reply to these threads to prevent Christian lurkers from coming away with the idea that skeptics have no response to Christian arguments. These responses also help newcomers to the skeptic viewpoint understand what many other skeptics have believed for years.

Sooner or later it will dawn on her that no one's listening.

How did you come to that conclusion? I think she would continue to post even if everyone ignored her. Many have speculated that it is her internal issues that drive her to post rather than a sincere desire to help us understand Jesus.

ETA: Of course,there those with the ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up notion that they can save Kathy. What a weird idea!

I have no hope in changing her beliefs. I do hope against all odds that she will find someplace else to post these beliefs. [stentorian] They call me Mr. Sisyphus [/stentorian]

Maybe the solution is to create a fake skeptic board. We can construct 'bots to post skeptical sounding things (these posts wouldn't have to be coherent or logical, after all we are just trying to fool Kathy). Then we will reprogram some of them to agree with Kathy and she can be happy in her belief that she is converting those darn skeptics.

 

[MIKILLINI]

Okay, once we get past the lame excuses, maybe we can accomplish something.

<snip> A very honest and insightful post RT. Your character and caring persona is tremendous and very wise, you are good people.

Then there are those who remain in Godbot auto-mode:

I am encouraqed that you say many atheists and aganostics take eternity seriously, but the problem is we cannot get there just with our head, we must have our hearts involved in the discovery process so I hope many intellects will at least consider that, For it's to the heart God speaks to man. What good is knowledge without love and understanding? The Holy Spirit is the one who can help us with this insight.

Hey Kathy, turn off the bible for a minute or two and try to comprehend what your reading.

 

[Jackalgirl]

I have listened to the audio book once all the way through and got through half a second time. I just do not have a hard copy to sit down and highlight to make tons of comments. I may need to get a hard copy but I honestly just get upset with the authors negative outlook on God throughout it.

The thing is, do you understand where the author's outlook is coming from? You absolutely do need to get a hardcopy, though, since the point of this thread is (at least, as I understood it) to read the books and provide meaningful, reasoned responses to the various points introduced therein.

He doesn't account for all are sinners and that is a huge issue as God is just. People just don't like to agree with God sometimes even though he says all of us after the fall are deserving of hell because of sin. The reason for our suffering in this world is because of sin, that's it. Death is not something anyone looks forward to but lets face the facts it's a reality.

This sound suspiciously like "The Secret" to me. It's as if you're saying that, say, a person who is gang-raped in Darfur was gang-raped because she was a sinner, not because evil people overpowered her and gang-raped her. Is this what you're saying?

Other people -- smarter people than I -- have pointed out examples of, say, very young children dying of disease, or starvation, or other people dying painfully of disease, or people dying because, say, an airplane comes smashing down into their homes - this is all because of sin? This is what you're saying?

Are you also maintaining that your God specifically made the world this way? Why would God set people up for failure like this? Are you honestly saying that humans are more capable of mercy and compassion in their interactions with each other than is God?

That's just really awful. What an awful belief!

 

[Ladewig]

..but the problem is we cannot get there just with our head, we must have our hearts involved in the discovery process so I hope many intellects will at least consider that,

Fine, I'll do it your way. My heart is filled with anguish at the consideration of all the babies that died during Noah's Flood. My heart is filled with lamentations for the colossal injustice God perpetrates by assigning an infinite punishment (hell) for a finite transgression (e.g. collecting firewood on the Sabbath). How anyone could call God's judgments fair and just is beyond both my intellect and my emotions. My heart is filled with pain at God's killing Job's children to win a bet with the devil. My heart is filled with fear when I read of God's sending a bear to kill 40 children who mocked a prophet's appearance. Is God insane to prescribe death for so minor a transgression?

I tried it your way, Kathy, now it is your turn to try it our way. Use your intellect. Or better yet, just leave us alone. There is no shame in walking away from the JREF. You are not the right person to convert us. Go find someone more receptive to your message style.

 

[Moochie]

More than a couple posters have stated that they reply to these threads to prevent Christian lurkers from coming away with the idea that skeptics have no response to Christian arguments. These responses also help newcomers to the skeptic viewpoint understand what many other skeptics have believed for years.




How did you come to that conclusion? I think she would continue to post even if everyone ignored her. Many have speculated that it is her internal issues that drive her to post rather than a sincere desire to help us understand Jesus.



I have no hope in changing her beliefs. I do hope against all odds that she will find someplace else to post these beliefs. [stentorian] They call me Mr. Sisyphus [/stentorian]

Maybe the solution is to create a fake skeptic board. We can construct 'bots to post skeptical sounding things (these posts wouldn't have to be coherent or logical, after all we are just trying to fool Kathy). Then we will reprogram some of them to agree with Kathy and she can be happy in her belief that she is converting those darn skeptics.

No argument here, especially not with that last bit.


M.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I wonder how may xtians kk has converted to atheism because of their disgust at her dishonesty and utter lack of anything approaching intellectual arguments.

I say, Good job, kurious_kathy! I feel bad for Hokulele, though. It's like you're both on the same team so she has nobody to really debate with.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I have to wonder if KK's biblical expertise comes from Chicktracts. Are they still making those?

Ahhh, the Chick Tract. One of my favorite ways of spreading the Lord's Gospel to the unwashed hellbound masses. Factually accurate, divinely anointed, but only 45% as effective as a one of a kind genuine Pastor Robert Tilton Prayer Cloth at banishing lower level demons.

For the really nasty older ones, you're going to need to assemble the Demon Blasting Strike Force of Peter Popoff, Doyle Davidson, Kenneth Copeland, and Pastor Bob himself.

 

[JetLeg]

I think it was Holler Hoojer who mentioned Hillel in another thread, but his summary is pretty apt.

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

Additionally, the way I understand it, the term "God's chosen people" isn't a mark of entitlement, but responsibility. In other words, it is their burden to ensure that the world is a better place.

Well, it happened that a few days ago I was walking on the streets of Jerusalem, when the sign "Call if you have questions about Judaism" took my attention. I decided to call.

I was talking to a rabbi from Bnei-Brak. Here is what I have found out :


Jews are benevolent by nature. Gentiles (non-jews) are not.


He said that there is a saying in one of the jewish books that gentiles that do good deeds actually do that because they have a vested interest in that. When I pressed and asked him about gentiles that saved jews in the holocoust, he said that he is not an expert, but probably they too.

A Jew has much a better chance than a non-jew of getting to heaven. A non-jew can also manage, but it will be much harder for him. He has to observe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

and he will get to heaven only if he observes them because god commanded him. (If he is just a good person -> no heaven). But anyway, it is easier for a jew.


One shouldn't help a priest (if he is in financial problems for example). Because that can lead to him spreading his (erroneuos) faith.

As far as I remember, one is obligated to help a jew, but one is not obligated to help a non-jew.

If one has a choice between helping a jew, and a non-jew, one always should help a jew. And I think he said that it is true even if the jew is a bad person, and the non-jew is a good one.

ONLY by knowing what god told us to do, one can know what is good. Feelings are changing, reason can err.

If the religious will control Israel (like they should), breaking the sabbath in public will be illegal. When I asked him will it be legal in the secular neighbourhoods, he said that if the religious are in control, they will quickly explain to the secular why they are wrong.

One last gem was when I asked him, if I want to convert a non-religious jew to judaism, can I pretend that I want to be his friend so I can convert him. He said yes. Actually, he said that if a person lies for a good purpose, it is not considered a lie. He gave the example of a bride that asks on her wedding day is she beautiful. If you lie to her, it isn't considered a lie. And he said that a lie when one wants to convert someone to believe in god is not considered a lie.

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So , there you go. Hillel, huh? I don't think that the conservatives hold these views. The reform definitely don't. I don't even know about the american orthodoxy. But of the Israeli orthodox - quiet probable.

I have heard similar things from Orthodox people I have talked to in Israel, (definitely have not heard anything contradictory). This is not serious research, that's collecting information by bits and pieces, though. The only thing that I encounter for the first time, was the part that gentiles always have a vested interest when doing a good deed. I am not sure if this part is representative or only his opinion.

Israeli Orthodox are more conservative than american ones. I am not sure if these views are representative of american jewish orthodoxy. It would be hard to check.

I doubt that a jew would tell all of these beliefs to a non-jew. They usually try to keep a good image of their community.

The only reason why I heard these answers, was because I pretended to be a religious jew, that just wants some clarifications.


I do not know how can you personally verify it. I could give you his phone number, but I don't think he talks english well, or would answer your questions.

You can read translations of some orthodox newspapers here

http://www.daatemet.org/news.cfm

 

[kurious_kathy]

kathy, I think you missed RoadToad's point about eternity. Did you read everything he wrote?
It's truly possible to live this life with a full heart and an engaged mind, and to make a positive impact as a mortal human being. You don't need to have an invisible daddy telling you what's right and wrong and passing imagined judgment on your every thought and action, especially when they're all defined as sinful. You don't need to rationalize the horrors of the world as being "God's justice" or consequences for the presence of "sin" in the world. Two people eat a piece of fruit, and somehow every rape, murder, disease, war, famine, accident, and natural disaster in all of human history is a rational, just and loving consequence for that action?

Is it really easy for you to buy that excuse? That all this suffering in the world is a just consequence for one man's sin? Does it seem fair to you that we've all been marked by the same sin, simply because we're related? Would you think it fair if the government decided that you had to take the punishments of your ancestors and sentenced you to prison for something your great-grandfather did? Would you be so awed by their sense of justice and love that you were compelled to begin worshipping the government? Would you want to spend all eternity by the government's side so that you could continue to worship them? Would you make excuses for them when other people began to notice that they weren't very evenhanded in their doling out of the punishments? Would you make excuses for them when they started imprisoning infants? Or is all that reserved for your invisible government in the sky?

Yes I did comment on that and I really hope they do take it seriously but I am skeptical of that since so many argue about God's existence. Materialism does not explain or define everything in our world or human nature. Many things are a part of our beings that we can't see but yet they are there like our conscience mind and ability to reason right from wrong. People cry out for justice but yet they do not define where that concept comes from. Why is that? Could it truly be we are spiritual beings and those things inside were put there by our creator God? I say yes, absolutely.

And I know many think they are happy in this life without God but then I must challenge you to think about what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul? Living for pleasure (BC days) only destroyed my life and now I know God had a purpose in helping me get to the end of that self destructive lifestyle. I repented of ungodly living and now I am finding hope and healing. This is what is working for me and many others out there. I do not think it is very wise for everyone to not validate a Christians testimony to the truth of the saving power of Christ.

And the problem of original sin has been discussed plenty before, I agree with it. Because of Adam and Eve's sin we all paid the cost. If you had been Eve do you think you would have done better?

 

[kurious_kathy]

So you never had any intention of living up to your side of the bargain? Doesn't God have something to say about lying? Doesn't He disapprove of not keeping your word?

We will know how to assess any further posts you make (as if we didn't already.)

Hey Liz I have kept my end of the bargain I did the audio book and found it very depressing for this author who must have never had a true saving faith in God or he wouldn't have fallen away. Gods ways are not our ways they are much higher and the sooner people come to terms with the holiness of God the better. He's always right!

If you expect me to sit down and disect every little bit of that book forget it I have other things to do with my time. Ever heard the term garabage in garbage out? Well that's my analysis of his book, total negative garbage. And that's being nice. I just feel sorry for the guy as one day he will more than likely face his maker and hear those dreadful words, "depart from me for I never knew you."

God has always been right to have to punish sin we just don't like to agree with the painful reality of that. We have all blown it in the eyes of our holy God. All we deserve is hell but from the cross Jesus forgave all of us. We are the ones responsible for whether we receive his forgiveness or not. And that does not mean our lives will not be painful either. Everyone goes through pains in life, looking forward to the promise of heaven is what can get us through it!

 

[proudnonbbeliever]

..And kk has just announced failure to complete the challenge.

therefore god does not exist.

btw is there a rule about not preaching? - just curious

 

[proudnonbbeliever]

oh yeah, thought of a good one for KK:

why would god need to sacrifice himself (jesus) to himself (god the father/spirit) in order to change the rules that he set in place and maintained.

is he therefore:
not "all powerful" (a requirement according to xian definition)
or "a figment of peoples imagination created to account for natural phenomena not yet understood and to create a working social system"

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Hey Liz I have kept my end of the bargain I did the audio book and found it very depressing for this author

Appeal to emotion.

who must have never had a true saving faith in God or he wouldn't have fallen away.

No True Scotsman

Gods ways are not our ways they are much higher and the sooner people come to terms with the holiness of God the better. He's always right!

Unproven assertion; appeal to potenitally non-existant authority.

If you expect me to sit down and disect every little bit of that book forget it I have other things to do with my time.

Willing admittance to having wasted everyones time

Ever heard the term garabage in garbage out? Well that's my analysis of his book, total negative garbage. And that's being nice. every little bit of that book forget it I have other things to do with my time.

Argument from incredulity/personal feelings. More unsupported assumptions (that the book is negative)

I just feel sorry for the guy as one day he will more than likely face his maker and hear those dreadful words, "depart from me for I never knew you."

Appeal to Emotion; yet more unsupported assertions, Argument From Adverse Consequences

God has always been right to have to punish sin we just don't like to agree with the painful reality of that. We have all blown it in the eyes of our holy God.

Appeal to Emotion; yet more unsupported assertions plus blaming the victim.

All we deserve is hell but from the cross Jesus forgave all of us. We are the ones responsible for whether we receive his forgiveness or not. And that does not mean our lives will not be painful either. Everyone goes through pains in life, looking forward to the promise of heaven is what can get us through it!

Again more appeals to emotion and unsupported assumptions; Argument From Adverse Consequences

 

[Mashuna]

Hey Liz I have kept my end of the bargain I did the audio book and found it very depressing for this author who must have never had a true saving faith in God or he wouldn't have fallen away. Gods ways are not our ways they are much higher and the sooner people come to terms with the holiness of God the better. He's always right!

If you expect me to sit down and disect every little bit of that book forget it I have other things to do with my time. Ever heard the term garabage in garbage out? Well that's my analysis of his book, total negative garbage. And that's being nice. I just feel sorry for the guy as one day he will more than likely face his maker and hear those dreadful words, "depart from me for I never knew you."

Kathy, it looks like you misunderstood the concept of this thread. If you look back at the first page, the idea was to read (or listen to), and comment, using quotes and citations on the contents. If you look at how Hokulele has responded to your recommended articles, that should give you a good idea of how to analyse and dissect the arguments in the book.

All you've done is pout and complain that you don't like it but you can't be bothered to say specifically what's wrong with it.

 

[Hokulele]

Hey Liz I have kept my end of the bargain I did the audio book and found it very depressing ...

Did you find it depressing because the author does not agree with your conclusion, depressing because the evidence led him to conclude that God isn't just or kind, depressing because it talked about suffering, or depressing for other reasons? It is your reasoning that matters in this thread.

In addition, what do you think about Erhman's suggestion as a solution to the existence of suffering in the world? You don't find that to be a positive message?


ETA: Odd that you subscribe to the OT notion of suffering as punishment for sin, as opposed to the message the Jesus actually preached. Ehrman clearly explains the origins and differences between the various OT notions of suffering and those presented in the NT, and yet, you reject the Christian message.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Did you find it depressing because the author does not agree with your conclusion, depressing because the evidence led him to conclude that God isn't just or kind, depressing because it talked about suffering, or depressing for other reasons? It is your reasoning that matters in this thread.

In addition, what do you think about Erhman's suggestion as a solution to the existence of suffering in the world? You don't find that to be a positive message?


ETA: Odd that you subscribe to the OT notion of suffering as punishment for sin, as opposed to the message the Jesus actually preached. Ehrman clearly explains the origins and differences between the various OT notions of suffering and those presented in the NT, and yet, you reject the Christian message.

It's depressing because he does not get it. Jesus forgives sin but he did not say people wouldn't have consequences form it. Does it really help to focus on suffering? That's what's depressing about it, he has no faith nor do I believe he ever had or he could not have fallen away. I dread his outcome for writing this book and the bad influence he has been for others. He will one day have to be accountable to God as we all will.

I also find it interesting that even though he states his wife is still a Christian he does not state anything about how his falling away from the faith has affected his marriage. Don't you find that odd? I do wonder how that must be going since I know it can destroy families and relationships when people are not equally yolked. Now thanks to Jesus my husband and I are but my turn around was not easy or pleasant. I had to repent a lot! I know what Jesus meant when he said if anyone wants to follow him they must pick up and carry their cross. It is coming to grips with our sins we committed once God shows us that is painful. Even though he forgives us we still feel the affects of what we have done while in this fallen world. Unbelievers are still blinded to their sins while believers are not. One day though I know I have the promise ,because I love God, of a new beginning. Now why wouldn't you want that?

 

[proudnonbbeliever]

kathy, try walking in the other guys shoes for a while.

he has thought long and hard about the issue before reaching his conclusion, it was not some snap decision or the work of "demons".

it was the product of a questioning, intelligent and logical human being.

most atheists have arrived to the same conclusion by similar means.

for me, i was brought up pentecostal christian. i couldn't reconcile what i was taught with what i saw in the real world. if all other religions are false, as i was taught, then why did they preach the same or similar goals/values. then i found out that people without religion did the same. they could be kind, caring, virtuous and more.

this led me to the conclusion that these are human traits, seeking peace and prosperity. i take great pride in being an atheist, among those enlightened individuals who have realised that we have grown up as a race and do not need fairytales anymore. we can do good things for whatever reasons we choose, not from fear, or false promises. we have the high self esteem that comes from knowing we are free to do as we please and we gain wisdom from knowing that it is purely in our hands to make the world better. no empty prayers or gestures will cure aids, science can.

and before you go on your typical bible bashing if you respond to this, please read it again slowly and take in the fact that i am another human being too. i dont wish you ill in any regard, only that your mind would be open to consider the possibility that the truth may be different to what you curently believe.

 

[dafydd]

It's depressing because he does not get it. Jesus forgives sin but he did not say people wouldn't have consequences form it. Does it really help to focus on suffering? That's what's depressing about it, he has no faith nor do I believe he ever had or he could not have fallen away. I dread his outcome for writing this book and the bad influence he has been for others. He will one day have to be accountable to God as we all will.

I also find it interesting that even though he states his wife is still a Christian he does not state anything about how his falling away from the faith has affected his marriage. Don't you find that odd? I do wonder how that must be going since I know it can destroy families and relationships when people are not equally yolked. Now thanks to Jesus my husband and I are but my turn around was not easy or pleasant. I had to repent a lot! I know what Jesus meant when he said if anyone wants to follow him they must pick up and carry their cross. It is coming to grips with our sins we committed once God shows us that is painful. Even though he forgives us we still feel the affects of what we have done while in this fallen world. Unbelievers are still blinded to their sins while believers are not. One day though I know I have the promise ,because I love God, of a new beginning. Now why wouldn't you want that?

'Unbelievers are still blind to their sins while believers are not'

No,believers are blind to their own delusions.People only get yolked whe eggs are thrown at them. The word is yoked.There is no point in me wanting or not wanting a new beginning courtesy of the sky daddy,because he does not exist and it's all bollocks.

 

[CriticalSock]

It's depressing because he does not get it. Jesus forgives sin but he did not say people wouldn't have consequences form it. Does it really help to focus on suffering? That's what's depressing about it, he has no faith nor do I believe he ever had or he could not have fallen away. I dread his outcome for writing this book and the bad influence he has been for others. He will one day have to be accountable to God as we all will.

(bolding mine)

You agreed to the subject of this discussion in the original post.

 

[Paulhoff]

We have all blown it in the eyes of our holy God.

It is ideas like this that give some the idea that they have the right to kill other people in death camps. That no matter what the distance from the so-called sin, they are still guilty no matter what their age. What a shameful way to think of others, and even more, what a shameful way to think of a so-called god.

Paul