VisionFromFeeling - General discussion thread

[Akhenaten]

Uh huh... except I don't think you'll ever take "fail" for an answer.


That's actually a good thing to establish up front: what result would you consider sufficient to abandon your belief in your own magical powers? Is there an outcome that would allow you to admit complete defeat, after which you would admit that you cannot ever do what you claim?

7 November. 2008

To me, whether I turn out to be able to successfully detect this information under test-settings, and in repeated trials, will not change the fact that I will continue perceiving the information in individual cases as before.

 

[desertgal]

I acknowledge it, it's just that you misunderstand the purpose of the first study and also you deny me the right to investigate my claimed experience in the way where I learn the most from it.

Please, do tell us how UncaYimmy or anyone here has denied you the right to do anything? You've posted here, you've gone to FACT meetings, you've continued correspondence with IIG, and you conducted your 'study' today. You've moved forward with your investigation, so either back up this accusation or have the decency to retract it.

Ashles, it's like asking a marathon runner to swim across the English channel instead of letting him show what he can do in the skill where he excels the best. Let me choose what to investigate.

Kindly stop using this ridiculous analogy. No one asked you to bring up all your other claims, and no one forced you to accept any of the suggested experiments once you did. In fact, Anita, the very first experiment was proposed by you on the first page of the original thread. No one here has or is stopping you from choosing what to investigate. You've moved ahead with the investigation of your chosen claim, haven't you?

Again, please either present some evidence to back up your accusations or have the decency to retract them.

 

[Gmonster2]

Thyroid??

Dr. Carlson reminded us about the reading with Wayne, in which I did in fact write "Thyroid?" on my notes. I said that I did in fact write that, but before I concluded on that reading I had concluded that it was the adam's apple I was sensing and that is what I said when I presented my reading at the end to Wayne. In my conclusion there was nothing about the thyroid. I said that I must take better notes from now on, because what I wrote is not the same as what I actually said and concluded on. I said that I also sense information about the body that is not health problems. Such as the beating of the heart, or the movement of the lungs, and sensing the adam's apple I did not sense it as involving a disorder


Thyroid ?? Tally ho , Dr Carlson is on to you.....

 

[Audible Click]

When I look at people I perceive automatic images of the inside of their bodies, I see tissues and organs, and health problems are highlighted in this vision. I also perceive feeling those persons, such as emotions, contraction, and other bodily sensations that the person would have from their point of view. These medical perceptions, as I call it, do not come with an immediate sense of reality or belief and I can clearly distinguish between this and my ordinary perception which has the same type of vision and senses as we all do. Furthermore, this extra information is not based on my logic or thinking, or even preconceived ideas or assumptions about the health of that person, because these two sources of information - the perceptions and logic - produce entirely different and contradicting information. Where the perceptions are far more accurate than my logic is in producing impressions of the health of others.

I experience many forms of automatic association of information that is reminiscent to synesthesia, such as associating color to the letter abbreviations of chemical elements or the variables of physics equations, or to just letters and numbers alone. To me most things come with many different aspects of perception, and through association. And I understand my medical perceptions to be related to all this other association I experience.

Synesthesia and association are by definition not mental illness. They are generally not even a handicap in life but produce enhanced learning capabilities and ways of relating to things that would otherwise be abstract or single-faceted information. My perceptions do not interfere with my life and there are no reasons for concern. I am also equipped with a normal and ordinary sense of perception to which the association is an addition on the side.

I am investigating the medical perceptions since I've experienced many cases of very interesting and compelling correlation between what I perceived and with the actual health of persons.

So this study was for me to gain more experience and exposure to my medical perceptions. To work with questionnaires and a reliable form of handling the data that eliminates suspicion of me tampering with the data or of adding or removing things. To learn more about what health information I perceive and which ones I am less likely to pick up on and under what conditions. Three persons worked on the study with me as controls and were also filling in health questionnaires alongside me so that my answers could be compared with someone else's, and they were encouraged to try any methods of guessing, cold reading, or statistics and demographics to acchieve high correlation with the volunteers' answers. More information about the purpose of the study, its objectives, what has been learnt from the study already and what more I intend to find out about it, and much more such as the actual documents that were used and all resulting data will be available at www.visionfromfeeling.com/study.html

The study studies my medical perceptions.

Let me test my understanding of the highlighted part of your quote. You have claimed to have synesthesia,now you say it's " reminicent of synesthesia".
I honestly wonder if you think before you type these "explanations". No one on this forum has denied you the right to investigate your claims in any way that you choose. But we can discuss and/or dismiss your claims as we choose. It all comes back to the same thing in the end, you were not willing to test your claims in a scientific way. There were many in this forum that worked very hard to help you and you dismissed all that help and went ahead in your own very un-scientific way. So what it boils down to is this you can test your claims and we can take those conclusions and discuss them either here or on another forum. We don't complain and you don't complain..right?

 

[Ashles]

Ashles, it's like asking a marathon runner to swim across the English channel instead of letting him show what he can do in the skill where he excels the best.

No it isn't anything like that.
Neither marathon running or swimming are in doubt as abilities.

You claim is more like this
Anita: I can run marathons
Skeptic: Really?
A: And I can swim. But I'm best at Marathon running
S: Okay well let's help you set up a 26 mile course
A: N I don't like your suggestions. I'll do it myself. And I'm not sure I can do 26 miles, this is only a 'study' you see and I'm really busy and I need to get legal permission from wherever the course is to be run. In fact I might run my own course. Well it won't actually be running, I might get a car for some of the route but it's not really a test anyway it's more an investigation so I can at some point in the future run a real course.
S: So how will you judge success?
A: Any way I feel like it
S: What about the swimming? That would be a lot more clear cut.
A: That's not my real test. I'm much better at marathon running.
S: But we're not asking you to swim the channel, just demonstrate you can swim better than someone who can't swim.
A: That's not my main claim
S: We've got a pool right here
A: THAT'S NOT MY MAIN CLAIM! Hon, sweetiekins. Stop picking on me! No I love you, you're brilliant.
S: And there are several pools near you.
A: You're so impatient
S: You know we could create a scenario to test whether you could swim at all, in a matter of minutes?
A: Look I am great at swimming. Just accept that. But it's not my main claim. am better at Marathon Running. When I have started a Marathon I have never failed to complete one.
S: Okay well how's the marathon running test coming along?
A: Real good. I decided to ignore every single piece of advice you gave me and decided to ask a bunch of random people if they think I have legs. I'll publish my results and analysis. Eventually.
S: But that won't tell you or anyone else anything new about anything.
A: Let me choose what to investigate.
S: But we don't ever learn anything when you choose what to investigate
A: The study begins that way, because the purpose of my investigation is not just to se if I can run a marathon, but for me to learn more about my experience. I'm working toward an actual test that has no subjectivity and that is fully adequate from even your point of view I am sure.
S: So, months later, we still have no idea if you can either run marathons or swim?[/quote]

 

[desertgal]

Let me test my understanding of the highlighted part of your quote. You have claimed to have synesthesia,now you say it's " reminicent of synesthesia".

Actually, it went more like this:
"I have an ability that is either synesthesia or ESP."
"It's probably not synesthesia."
(Takes online test that UncaYimmy referred her to. Does not pass, except in one area, and it was not conclusive.)
"It might be synesthesia."
"I have synesthesia. No, I haven't been to a doctor to confirm that, but I have symptoms of synesthesia."
"My perceptions are reminiscent of synesthesia."

I have to point out that no one here has suggested that synesthesia is a symptom of mental illness or a handicap, so I fail to see why she keeps asserting that. It is sometimes linked to autism and savantism, which Anita clearly doesn't have, but those are not mental illnesses.

 

[skeen]

It seems like Anita suffers from a fear that she is simply ordinary. She brings up synaesthesia, and talks about people whose minds work in strange ways, and wants to have those conditions - wants to have anything that would make her special.

There's certainly something in her mind, where she knows she cannot do the things she claims to be able to do. Her ducking and diving is painfully transparent. For instance, if she really believed in her crystal abilities, she'd do a very quick and simple test, and that would be it. But she must know this isn't real.

She only seems to do tests where statistically, she might get it right. But unfortunately for her, she has failed even those.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

It seems like Anita suffers from a fear that she is simply ordinary. She brings up synaesthesia, and talks about people whose minds work in strange ways, and wants to have those conditions - wants to have anything that would make her special.

There's certainly something in her mind, where she knows she cannot do the things she claims to be able to do. Her ducking and diving is painfully transparent. For instance, if she really believed in her crystal abilities, she'd do a very quick and simple test, and that would be it. But she must know this isn't real.

She only seems to do tests where statistically, she might get it right. But unfortunately for her, she has failed even those.

I have a slightly different take on this ( I'm in the scam corner)

I think she WANTS to be "different" or "special" because her ego demands it and the woo is "special" but cannot be "proven" to any literal degree.

This gives her the obfuscation angle to bog down any challenge to her claims.

All I have seen her do is try to CONVINCE people rather than PROVE an ability.

All the "wall o text" and obfuscative answers and non answers and deliberately ignoring legitimate means and constantly skirting every direct challenge by trying to "test" it shows me she is nothing more than an infomercial queen hoping for her pedestal in the woo hall of fame.

 

[Ashles]

It seems like Anita suffers from a fear that she is simply ordinary. She brings up synaesthesia, and talks about people whose minds work in strange ways, and wants to have those conditions - wants to have anything that would make her special.

That is completely my opinion on this claim as well.

No paranormal ability, no synesthesia, no cold reading, not even an intended scam.
Not even guessing, as that would by now mean at least some form of test (and we already saw the result when she even dipped her toe into the 'guessing' waters - Waynegate)
Just a desire to keep this claim alive as long as possible because after it is identified there are no results above chance there is nothing interesting to discuss.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Agreed. So, then, her efforts here are really just egotism:

(May coexist with delusions of one's own importance, at the denial of others. This conceit is a character trait describing a person who acts to gain values in an amount excessively greater than that which he/she gives to others. Egotism is often accomplished by exploiting the altruism, irrationality and ignorance of others, as well as utilizing coercive force and/or fraud.)

I think we've all arrived at the same place, just from different directions.

(Egotism is a personality trait, not a disorder-I'm not diagnosing, just agreeing with LE's remarks.)

She reminds me of Mike Nifong. No evidence, No facts, No crime, No victim ( except for the Lax team), No witnesses, PLENTY of evidence to the contrary and so forth.

But what the hell, I "believe" her so lets get a guilty verdict.

 

[Moochie]

That is completely my opinion on this claim as well.

No paranormal ability, no synesthesia, no cold reading, not even an intended scam.
Not even guessing, as that would by now mean at least some form of test (and we already saw the result when she even dipped her toe into the 'guessing' waters - Waynegate)
Just a desire to keep this claim alive as long as possible because after it is identified there are no results above chance there is nothing interesting to discuss.

She might then become a fully fledged skeptic and take over chillzero's job when chill retires.


M.

 

[Ashles]

Anita's 'study' page is becoming almost incomprehensible now (I assume by design).

I understand there is little doubt that she is (on the whole) a high-scoring science student.
I just cannot understand how.
If she were writing or describing experimental design in her courses in this way she would score terribly.

The only explanation for such badly designed (and ignoring all input from anyone else) tests/studies/surveys can be deliberate intention to obfuscate.

 

[desertgal]

She reminds me of Mike Nifong.

Bingo.

(That was an appalling case. I never thought Nifong was even remotely remorseful. And he completely escaped criminal punishment, except for the disbarment. One day in jail was a farce. Last I read, he was attempting bankruptcy to duck the civil cases. Horrible man.)

 

[Ashles]

I imagine there will be a new paranormal claim opening soon, at a thread near here.

I'm really struggling on that study page of Anita's - has she stated what the study this weekend involved?

She did give me an indication via PM but I want to check what she says about the study before I comment further as she may have changed the study if she took on board any of my criticisms.

 

[desertgal]

I'm really struggling on that study page of Anita's - has she stated what the study this weekend involved?

No details, just that the first study took place, and the usual "It's not me, it's them".

Second study?
Now that the first study has been scheduled and is soon to take place, I am already considering what will be the next step in the investigation after that. There are three options to follow after the first study:
1. Plenty is learned from the study and I am off to have the real test.
2. Second study is done to continue the learning process of studying the claim and of adapting the claimed experience from its former everyday situation to the test environment.
3. The claim is obviously a non-paranormal ability (what I usually refer to as a "non-ability") and the claim is falsified and this investigation is terminated and completed. The first study is not a test and a non-ability might slip through, only to be caught at a later stage in this investigation.

The second study should be designed for me to try out various screens between me and the volunteer. This makes it not possible to conduct the study out in the public but would require volunteers who have been gathered in advance. I would try screens of different materials, perhaps with different visibility through them, and of different sizes, and covering different parts of the volunteer's body in order to find out what is the "most screen" that still enables vision from feeling. Of course I want as much screen as possible.

I get a lot of criticism by JREF Forum Skeptics about this first study I am having. Some of them don't see why I don't just go straight for the test. They won't listen to my reasoning. This investigation is not just to prove whether I do or do not have a paranormal ability - I want to find out more about this fascinating phenomenon than just that! The first study is a very rough draft, and trust me, as a science student I could have designed a much more rigorous and conclusive study but this is how I chose to do this investigation. The second study should provoke less criticism, as it will be an improved version and somewhat of an in-between between the first study and an actual, real test! And, to the JREF Skeptics, it is all of course UpcomingTM!

 

[Ashles]

Unlike you two, and the rest of your little gang, who seem happy enough to get your kicks spending hours taking the piss out of someone most of you seem to believe has mental health problems.

Just FYI - I have never said Anita has mental health issues.

The reason I feel ok taking the piss out of Uncayimmy is that, although clearly obsessive, I believe he's not quite mentally ill, and he's the main driving force behind the group-bullying going on.

Jolly good - well you carry on, you're obviously enjoying getting yourself wound up defending someone who doesn't really seem to be taking much notice.

 

[plumjam]

Plummy, has it occurred to you that perhaps the heel is on the other shoe, that VfF is bullying us by dangling tantalizing morsels of 100% low-fat woo before our noses and making us all think that at any moment now the krona will drop and satisfy our appetite? Huh? Has it?


M.

Yeah, funny. She has been single-handedly bullying dozens of people by being relatively polite, respectful, but too slow for most people's liking.
If being dangled these 'morsels' is going to cause you such personal suffering that you have no choice but to retaliate by indulging in bullying then maybe you should do yourself a favour and leave these threads.

 

[Gmonster2]

I don't follow why Anita wants to add screens and tighten controls??

Even in the loose cold reading, no controls format she failed already?!

Waynes's, thyroid, tired shoulder, adams apple, throat discomfort? and missing the scar from an operation...

Dr Carlson 4 or 5 minor things found (wrong) and didnt view/feel the missing kidney?(wrong).

Lady skeptic one guess right.


I'll tell the hospital to unplug the MRI , Anita'a on the way...

 

[Ashles]

That's good. It means you're an altogether better class of bully.

Anita has thanked me on a few occasions for standing up for her; but I'd do it without the gratitude, because the whole spectacle of how she has been treated by your kind is pretty disgusting.

Well I guess she must be really hacked off with me - that's why she PMd me three days ago to ask for my input on her test design this weekend and I already know what the study is testing, but by agreement with Anita have not yet revealed the subject.
The second PM began "Thank you Ashles, I trust your valuable judgement and am considering it."
Now I don't think she will take on board my suggestions, but all of "our little gang" are more than able to have meaningful exchanges with Anita.
I think you have rather misjudged the tone of these threads. Anita enjoys them hugely.

Still I'll let you get back to valiantly and herocally defending... whatever it is you believe you are defending.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

I really intend to provide reliable data from now on.

As opposed to what you've provided before now?

Well initially there was only my claimed experiences of medical perception, events that had occurred in the past and that had led me to have this investigation, and those occurred without any documentation or reliable witnesses available. The medical perceptions I claim to have during this study process will be documented in an ever improved way. The final test results will of course be fully verified and also published by the IIG, when and if we reach that far.

You've had months of some really clever people (not me) doing their level best to help you figure out where you should take it next, but you refuse to listen. Now those people are bored with the game, and are moving onto other projects. Some of us are even working together, which is nice.

No offense, but you Forum Skeptics do not understand my paranormal claim nor the details of it. All you seem to have is suspicion towards that anything I say would be lies or delusion, when in fact they are not. You see, when I meet with the local Skeptics, they give me plenty of advice, both such that is easy to embrace as well as harsh opposing reality, all of which I use to advance in my investigation. None bother with false accusation or nonsensical arguments against me as a person, nor any of the other things that some of you Forum Skeptics like to waste time and resources with here.

Forum Skeptics, the same people who discuss threadpage after threadpage about how delusional I am for claiming to be from Sweden, or for describing myself as not thinking I am special nor for doing this for attention, and telling me that my claim would already be falsified when it is not, or to take a real test when my understanding of my claim is not there yet, or calling me mentally ill for having synesthesia. I just know that some of the Forum Skeptics' loving suggestions are not based on the best understanding of my claim nor on interests of seeing my claim carefully looked into as it deserves. I'd be foolish to let you guys run my investigation. I do take good advice, but I have to avoid the bad ones. I know what I'm doing, and it's leading toward a paranormal test.

Not really. The purpose of the first study is to prevent you from proceeding to any kind of test of anything at all. I accept that you may not be aware of this yourself. I can't, of course, speak for everyone, but I'm in Australia, eh? How am I, for instance, denying you any right to do anything whatsoever. How are the others going about it? They never tell me anything, the Meanies™.

I was in protocol negotiations with the IIG until we both realized that I don't know whether I can work with a screen between me and the volunteers, and other vital information about how my claimed ability works under certain test conditions. The study helps me to find out how my claimed ability will work under test conditions, information without which I can not proceed to have a test.

You may have noticed, or maybe not, but ALL of your claims and activities are now under objective scrutiny by a dedicated group of people who have no interest in "appeal". Take whatever size steps you want to, it's just as easy to document them, no matter how big or small they might be.

There is only one claim involved here.

Sorry to disappoint, Sugarpie Sweetcheeks, but your attempts to cultivate your own group of skeptics hasn't gone too well so far. My own (free-range) skepticism says that there isn't much likelihood of that changing.

Such a negative outlook towards paranormal claimants... I'm doing the right thing by working with Skeptics, rather than "doing studies" with my "best friends" for instance. You just find no thing to criticize, so you go after the good things. How pitiful!