Gympie and ancient history

[Akhenaten]

Yet more proof to support Arthwollipot's claim that Australian fauna are out to kill humans...

And livestock . . .


wildex.com

This plant may occur along rainforest edges, such as tracks, and clearings. The large heart shaped leaves are covered in hairy spines. which can impale the skin and cause intense pain. The pain may persist for several days and even return over many months. Horses, mules and donkeys can be affected which may cause panic and stampeding. Early records indicate that horses have died (from panicking and bolting into the bush) as a result of contact with Stinging Trees in the rainforests of North Queensland.

 

[Akhenaten]

Now see, I didn't know the platypus was poisonous too. There aren't that many poisonous mammals, are there? That's just an unusual animal all-round.

Venomous Mammals

Cuban Solenodon Atopogale cubana & Haitian Solenodon Solenodon paradoxus

Solenodons look similar to very large shrews. They both have venomous bites; the venom is delivered from modified salivary glands via grooves in their second lower incisors.


Platypus Ornithorhynchus anatinus*

The calcaneous spur found on the male platypus's hind limb is used to deliver venom. Echidnas, the other monotremes, have spurs but no functional venom glands.


Eurasian water shrew Neomys fodiens

Capable of delivering a venomous bite.


Northern Short-tailed Shrew Blarina brevicauda

Capable of delivering a venomous bite.


Southern Short-tailed Shrew Blarina carolinensis & Elliot's Short-tailed Shrew Blarina hylophaga

Possibly have a venomous bite.​

But that tree has such yummy looking fruit. Is the fruit edible?

If I was given to speculation, I'd say that nobody has been game to find out. I can't find any references on the W³ to the fruit either being considered as bush tucker (traditional aboriginal food) or as being poisonous.

The best answer that I can offer is a mixture of my own observation and some conjecture.

The fine hairs that do the actual stinging business aren't just on the leaves. They're on the fruit and its little stalks as well, so gathering the fruit would be a nighmare. Then it would have to be prepared to remove the stinging properties.

The local aboriginals could no doubt have done this, as they have learned to prepare many other poisonous plants for their consumption as food, but considering that the Gympie Tree (bush, actually) grows on the fringes of rainforest areas where many other food sources are available, it seems that maybe it was just more trouble than it was worth.


I don't know enough to agree or disagree with Bob's colour test, but it's a system that many experienced bushies use as a rough guide. It must have some reliabilty, since Old Bob is still here.



* My wife and I used to have mock arguments about this name. She preferred the old name of Ornithorhynchus paradoxus, because that's what it's called in Dot and the Kangaroo. I mostly had to let her win because she had a reference and I didn't.

 

[Akhenaten]

All this talk of things that bite is chasing the tourists away, . . .

Not the crocs. They like the tourists to stay for dinner.

. . . now to stop the sting of bull ant, jumper ants,green ants, inch men(they have wire cutters on the front and a big sting at the other end)blue bottle wasp and all the paper wasps and hornets pull up bracken fern and brake open the bent root. The sticky sap numbs the pain, I believe it is full of a form of cyanide.

Not cyanide, but something just as bad called Ptaquiloside.

There are some good bush remedies about. This one sounds like a remedy for being alive.


Bracken Poisoning

Bracken poisoning causes depression of bone-marrow activity which leads to severe leukopenia - a form of white blood cell anaemia, - thrombocytopenia - an abnormally low blood platelet count - and hemorrhagic syndrome. In addition, the uncooked plant contains the enzyme thiaminase, which can destroy thiamine (vitamin B1) and cause a possibly fatal disease similar to beri-beri in non-ruminants such as horses.

Not very pleasant. But, in addition to nasty effects on the blood Pteridium aquilinum was also found - in 1960 - to be highly carcinogenic causing polyp-type bladder and intestinal tumours in grazing animals who ate large amounts of bracken or were fed bracken-containing fodder. The carcinogenicity of bracken was demonstrated definitively using lab rats, a result that was later reproduced by several research groups.

BTW. When Capt Cook's crew ate some cycad seeds they had "a hearty fit of vomiting and purging" while pigs that ate them seemed fine. . . until a week later when two pigs died and the others became ill and later recovered "with difficulty".

Aboriginals eat lots of cycad seeds, after careful preparation.

Spider bite cut and rub onion juice, best for red back.

Won't argue with that, although I'm a vinegar man myself. Good for jellyfish and bluebottles too. Box jellyfish, not so much. You gonna die.


ETA: I just noticed that arthwollipot mentioned the box jellyfish earlier. Soz, but I guess they're bad enough for a double mention.

The bush around Gympie has all these things plus a few snakes and scorpions.

And cane toads. Haven't made my mind up about them yet.

Now that land bridge we so often hear about, Tasmanian Aborigine was different to the mainland mix, they were original Papuan now point being if the land bridge theory was how our lot got here why didn't they get to Tassy.

I'll have to do some research, but here's my initial guess.

Maybe the Tasmanian Aboriginals came over early on in the piece and after they'd arrived there, Bass Strait was formed and they became isolated from subsequent generations of migrants from Papua etc, so they ended up being a little different to the mainland blokes. Just the same as aboriginals are a bit different to Papuans.

The land bridge (walkathon) must have been much earlier long before the Indian invasion of slave workers about 10,000 years ago to mine gold, good theory?

Until someone disproves it, it's as good as any other.

Realistic? Your "realistic" time for the arrival of Phoenecians with Indian slaves predates Phoenecia itself by 6½ thousand years.

So is mine

H.bigsis yes they have a poison spike under there tail, don't know about the fruit but the colour looks wrong to eat.

When you read it all by itself, that sentence is suggesting something I don't want to deal with.

 

[Damien Evans]

Lionking and others have met Pharaoh, and will vouch for the first part of the above statement having been completly falsified. Also, all women everywhere are pretty, especially Gwyneth Paltrow. This cannot be falsified.

What, you're not handsome? I dunno, you have a mighty impressive beard...

 

[Akhenaten]

Yes, redback spiders are closely related to black widows. They prefer dark, dusty areas like the back corners of the garden shed. They were notorious for haunting outhouses, back when outhouses were still common.

I knew about the relationship, but the black widow seems to have a fearsome reputation whereas the red back is only moderately scary.

They have an unhealthy liking for setting up operations in the dark bits of aeroplanes too, where I've found a few by touch instead of a torch. If only I had infra-vision.

No-one who has received treatment has died from a redback bite, as far as I know. Onion juice may well soothe the pain, but it does nothing for the neurotoxin that they inject.

Actually, very few people who don't receive treatment die from redback bites, either. Redback poison is generally only fatal to children and people who are weakened due to other causes. It'll make you quite sick, and it's very painful, but it generally won't kill you.

The first couple of times I was bitten I was a bit concerned so I went to the base medical centre to get cured. All they gave me was a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down. Since then I've just self-administered the same treatment with no ill effects ill effect ill effects ill effects ill effect ill effects . . .

I've had about six goes at red back bites, and each one seems to be less of a problem. A headache and red veins in my sore arm is about the worst of it.

ETA: And I believe there is a strong argument that they were brought to Australia by Europeans.

I'll go along with that. They seem different in appearance and habit to other spiders that I encounter. Besides, if they were genuine Aussie spiders I'd at least expect them to cause a horrible, agonizing death. We have a rep to uphold here, after all.

 

[Akhenaten]

What, you're not handsome? I dunno, you have a mighty impressive beard...

I'm going through a Jesus period at the moment.

I'm going to get some ink and some old sheets and start mass-producing Shrouds of Turin.

Order yours now!

Various poses available.

 

[zooterkin]

And let's not go into the blur-ringed octopus.

Does your vision start to go after you've been stung?

 

[Akhenaten]

Just a sample at this stage. I don't have my Easter outfit on for this one.

 

[Old Bob]

I had a beard like above only mine was red. If Geo-reports are right the lakes joining the Noosa river were once much bigger and deeper running up to wards Gympie. Since then the land has up lifted. James Greene the author of "The pyramids of Gympie" talks of his grandfather witnessing a earth quake and stone effigies disappearing into the mud of Lake Cootharaba. The Noosa river and the lakes would have made a great port for early seafarers. Beautiful sheltered clean waters, I have canoed and fished the head waters, Think there are a few small croc up there by the marks on the banks. 6 posts on target now lionking.

 

[Akhenaten]

I had a beard like above only mine was red. If Geo-reports are right the lakes joining the Noosa river were once much bigger and deeper running up to wards Gympie. Since then the land has up lifted. James Greene the author of "The pyramids of Gympie" talks of his grandfather witnessing a earth quake and stone effigies disappearing into the mud of Lake Cootharaba. The Noosa river and the lakes would have made a great port for early seafarers. Beautiful sheltered clean waters, I have canoed and fished the head waters, Think there are a few small croc up there by the marks on the banks. 6 posts on target now lionking.

Red beards are very impressive. Also, redheads are gorgeous. Redheads and men with red beards have appeared in pictures found inside Pyramids.

Some years ago, before I'd heard of the Gympie pyramids, we used to go houseboating on Cootharaba and Cooroibah. Never made it past the area known as the Everglades though. Nice fishing down near the mouth of the river, and it must have been an important food-gathering area in ancient times, just like Gympie.

I take your point about the Noosa River being much deeper in former times, although the lakes are getting awfully shallow these days. I imagine they'll disappear in a few generations. Maybe some artifacts from ancient history will resurface.

There are, as you know, sandstone cliffs in the Noosa National Park, not far from the river mouth. I wonder if it would be feasible to cut stone here and transport it up river to Gympie. If I were going to build a Pyramid at Gympie in ancient times, that's how I'd do it,

I thought Cootharaba might be too far south for crocs, but it's quite feasible, and I have no reason to argue. Crocodiles were important creatures to some of the early Pyramid builders.



That makes 7. We're on a roll, Bob.

 

[Akhenaten]

Take care in the floods Bob. She's lookin' a bit crook.

 

[Magenta]

But that tree has such yummy looking fruit. Is the fruit edible?

If I was given to speculation, I'd say that nobody has been game to find out. I can't find any references on the W³ to the fruit either being considered as bush tucker (traditional aboriginal food) or as being poisonous.

The best answer that I can offer is a mixture of my own observation and some conjecture.

The fine hairs that do the actual stinging business aren't just on the leaves. They're on the fruit and its little stalks as well, so gathering the fruit would be a nighmare. Then it would have to be prepared to remove the stinging properties.

The local aboriginals could no doubt have done this, as they have learned to prepare many other poisonous plants for their consumption as food, but considering that the Gympie Tree (bush, actually) grows on the fringes of rainforest areas where many other food sources are available, it seems that maybe it was just more trouble than it was worth.


I don't know enough to agree or disagree with Bob's colour test, but it's a system that many experienced bushies use as a rough guide. It must have some reliabilty, since Old Bob is still here.

I had a look in my copy of Tim Low's Bush Tucker. According to him:

The adventurous forager might even try the fruits of the various stinging trees (Dendrocnide species) which, if a few stinging hairs are left attached, provide a truly unforgettable taste sensation.

Elsewhere, he describes the fruit as "very tasty". Personally, this would come under the "If I was starving and there was nothing else to eat" category...

Also, alleged croc sighting in Brisbane. It's a wild world out there.

 

[politas]

I'll go along with that. They seem different in appearance and habit to other spiders that I encounter. Besides, if they were genuine Aussie spiders I'd at least expect them to cause a horrible, agonizing death. We have a rep to uphold here, after all.

And from what I hear, though I haven't had opportunity to confirm or refute it, there is no mention of redbacks in Aboriginal dreamtime legends, which you'd rather expect there would be for such distinctive critters if they were native.

Maybe Old Bob can shed some light on that particular question?

 

[politas]

Red beards are very impressive. Also, redheads are gorgeous. Redheads and men with red beards have appeared in pictures found inside Pyramids.

My Dad used to have a big red bead. It's gone almost entirely grey now.

 

[arthwollipot]

Also, redheads are gorgeous.

Word.

 

[Old Bob]

And from what I hear, though I haven't had opportunity to confirm or refute it, there is no mention of redbacks in Aboriginal dreamtime legends, which you'd rather expect there would be for such distinctive critters if they were native.

Maybe Old Bob can shed some light on that particular question?

No I can't, as above there is no mention of red backs from family records.But back then we had no cane toads either. Poison spiders ticks centipedes scorpions all very in toxin levels depending on the mineral content of the ground. (so I'm told)

 

[Akhenaten]

I had a look in my copy of Tim Low's Bush Tucker. According to him:

The adventurous forager might even try the fruits of the various stinging trees (Dendrocnide species) which, if a few stinging hairs are left attached, provide a truly unforgettable taste sensation.

Elsewhere, he describes the fruit as "very tasty". Personally, this would come under the "If I was starving and there was nothing else to eat" category...

Well, Tim's braver than me, no question about that. I doubt that Old Bob is very keen to try one, and next time I'm up that way I'm not going to either. I know what it feels like on my skin, and I'm not going to risk the same thing with my tongue and throat. Starving can't be all that bad, can it?

Also, alleged croc sighting in Brisbane. It's a wild world out there.

It's worse than you think:

Urban Crocodile Hunt


I remember the same thing happening when we lived in Sydney in the late 50s or early 60s, when someone found two salties in an old reservoir at Manly, also in Northern Sydney. Unfortunately I can't find a reference for this anywhere but in my memory, so I can't actually count it as a sighting, unless another old Sydneysider can confirm it for me.

Normally, I wouldn't expect to see crocs South of Rockhampton on the East coast and Carnarvon on the West coast. Anywhere on the coast between those two places, and you is a food item.

And from what I hear, though I haven't had opportunity to confirm or refute it, there is no mention of redbacks in Aboriginal dreamtime legends, which you'd rather expect there would be for such distinctive critters if they were native.

I wish I'd thought of that clue. Excellent deduction, as it turns out. You're right on the money:


From researchers at the University of Queensland (click the "Proceed" button if it appears when the page opens)

Redback Spiders occur throughout Australia but are most common where the natural environment has been disturbed, such as settled or urban areas. Within natural forest, the spiders are rare to absent. These facts plus the spiders' ready ability to invade and colonise newly settled suburbs imply that Redback Spiders may not be native to Australia. They were first recorded in 1870, but by that time about 200 other spider species had already been found. If Redback Spiders were as common then as they are today they should have been recorded sooner. Very similar species of Latrodectus occur in the Pacific Islands, New Zealand, Europe, and North and South America. Further, it was at the seaports of Rockhampton and Bowen that the Redbacks were first collected and this adds strength to the supposition that that a foreign spider may have been carried here unwittingly by ship.

They sound like Laurasian critters to me, not Gondwanaian.


Just to tidy up some other loose ends . . .

Also from the UQ site:

The Redback or Jockey Spider belongs to a group of spiders known throughout the world as Black Widows (genus Latrodectus). For many years, it was thought that most Black Widow spiders belonged to one cosmopolitan species, Latrodectus mactans. The taxonomy of the group is by no means settled, but the Redback Spider of Australia is currently thought to be a distinct species, Latrodectus hasseltii.

And now the scary stuff . . .

In a 13 year period (1963-1976) over 2000 cases of Redback Spider bite were reported to the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories (Sutherland and Trinca 1978); many more bites are reported to doctors, hospitals, and poison information centres throughout Australia.

Prior to the introduction of the specific antivenom in 1956, 13 deaths in Australia were caused by Redback Spider bite.

Only the female is large enough to bite people effectively. The initial bite is often felt but is apparently painless, although some victims have reported burning sensations (Taylor and Murray 1946). Puncture marks are not always evident. In the majority of bites intense local pain is experienced about five minutes after the bite (Sutherland 1983). According to Weiner (1961), in about 40 percent of bites the symptoms included sweating and/or some neuromuscular activity such as muscular weakness, paralysis, stiffness, loss of coordination, tremors, and paresthesiae; and in about 10 percent, muscular weakness, nausea, vomiting, local swelling, dizziness or fainting, local redness, tachycardia, palpitations, insomnia, rigors, fever, and muscle spasms were also recorded. Some reactions can be quite unusual (Sutherland 1983): tetanic spasms, tingling in the teeth, swelling of the tongue, infection of the bite site, convulsions, thirst, diarrhoea, shock, rashes, patches of sweating, periorbital oedema, and others. However, the diagnostic indication of a Redback Spider bite is localised sweating at the site of the bite.

I think I should have been takin' the sneaky buggers a bit more seriously. It seems that I must only have been bitten by the little fellers.


Treatment

Sutherland (1983) recommends that no special first aid be applied because the venom is slow acting and localising it may intensify the pain at the bite site. The best action is to transport the person immediately and without panic to medical aid. Serious illness apparently does not develop for at least three hours. In 2144 cases surveyed from 1963-1976 (Sutherland and Trinca 1978), antivenom was administered in most cases.

I think I'm over Redbacks

My Dad used to have a big red beard. It's gone almost entirely grey now.

Mine's not going grey, it's going "Steel Blonde"

Word.

Strangely, I wasn't thinking about you when I mentioned gorgeous redheads, but after another look, well, hey . . .*



* No, I'm not, but thank you for asking.

 

[arthwollipot]

Strangely, I wasn't thinking about you when I mentioned gorgeous redheads, but after another look, well, hey . . .

What can I say? I'm seeing a gorgeous redhead tonight.

 

[Akhenaten]

@ Old Bob


G'day Cobber,

There's been a lot of discussion around the lists concerning off-topic posting lately. I don't know if this thread is at risk or not, but I have an idea to make things so that it doesn't matter.

I was thinking about starting a thread titled "Australia" and my OP would be "Please Discuss" or something like that.

We can then safely continue all the yack from this conversation over there, and as long as the posts have something about Australia in them I don't believe anyone will be able to complain.

I will not do this without your approval.

Alternatively, you may like to start the thread yourself. Just use that one word, "Australia" as the topic. You can even start off with Gympie Pyramids if you like, but be reminded that I'll try and debunk it, politely of course.

Best Wishes,

Dave.


PS I DO know what the pyramids are, but if I'd given my explanation straight away the thread would have died, and that would have been a shame because it's a very good thread. You've done well, me old china.

 

[Old Bob]

Bloody good idea Dave, might even promote a bit of tourism. Please you start the post and I'll be happy to join in with something stupid. Cheers Old Bob