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Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge
- Thread starter Hokulele
- Start date
Sun Countess
Appearance of intelligence
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2009
- Messages
- 3,154
kathy, I think you missed RoadToad's point about eternity. Did you read everything he wrote?
Is it really easy for you to buy that excuse? That all this suffering in the world is a just consequence for one man's sin? Does it seem fair to you that we've all been marked by the same sin, simply because we're related? Would you think it fair if the government decided that you had to take the punishments of your ancestors and sentenced you to prison for something your great-grandfather did? Would you be so awed by their sense of justice and love that you were compelled to begin worshipping the government? Would you want to spend all eternity by the government's side so that you could continue to worship them? Would you make excuses for them when other people began to notice that they weren't very evenhanded in their doling out of the punishments? Would you make excuses for them when they started imprisoning infants? Or is all that reserved for your invisible government in the sky?
It's truly possible to live this life with a full heart and an engaged mind, and to make a positive impact as a mortal human being. You don't need to have an invisible daddy telling you what's right and wrong and passing imagined judgment on your every thought and action, especially when they're all defined as sinful. You don't need to rationalize the horrors of the world as being "God's justice" or consequences for the presence of "sin" in the world. Two people eat a piece of fruit, and somehow every rape, murder, disease, war, famine, accident, and natural disaster in all of human history is a rational, just and loving consequence for that action?
Is it really easy for you to buy that excuse? That all this suffering in the world is a just consequence for one man's sin? Does it seem fair to you that we've all been marked by the same sin, simply because we're related? Would you think it fair if the government decided that you had to take the punishments of your ancestors and sentenced you to prison for something your great-grandfather did? Would you be so awed by their sense of justice and love that you were compelled to begin worshipping the government? Would you want to spend all eternity by the government's side so that you could continue to worship them? Would you make excuses for them when other people began to notice that they weren't very evenhanded in their doling out of the punishments? Would you make excuses for them when they started imprisoning infants? Or is all that reserved for your invisible government in the sky?
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Evolved Wookie
A rigidly defined area of doubt and uncertainty
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2008
- Messages
- 601
Breathtaking, RT. Superb. I can only wish one day to be able to marshal my thoughts and feelings so well.
supercorgi
Dog Everlasting
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2004
- Messages
- 2,528
Dragonrock
Militant Elvisian Tacoist
By the way, I nominate RT's post. I just hate him for it.
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
I guess the truth should be told. I didn't write it for Kathy.
Kathy is one of those who will never get it. She wants to believe her "friends," the people who groove on telling her how much Jesus loves her, the same folks who want her as weak as themselves. Kathy wants to believe that Jesus will forgive everything, that when she goes, there won't be any damage left behind by her actions. Kathy wants to believe that there won't be any consequences.
That's not realistic. There are always consequences. And if you don't learn it from your parents, you certainly learn it from the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics, from basic economics, from simple mathematics. It is there to be learned; there is no excuse for not knowing this.
What we have gained over time, starting with learning of simple machines such as the lever, the inclined plane, and the like, is not only ways to save labor, but that our actions have consequences which reach far beyond the immediate area of impact. Our knowledge has transcended the initial stages of utility to something far more. It's hard to see sometimes, but most politicians comprehend such things as leverage, as do most financiers, (though you wouldn't know it by today's economy.) Once you can get into the groove, you can expand on the physical knowledge and take it into other areas. Sometimes it dovetails in well, other times, you have to work your way around it before you get it.
Hence, I would suspect, one reason the author of the Lord's Prayer included the line, "On Earth as it is in Heaven." I think they understood this idea. We deceive ourselves when we start to think that the authors of the Bible were stupid; you need to work your way around how they thought.
Another example: I'm writing this on a laptop. If I make a mistake, I simply click here and there, remove the error, and rewrite. 20 years ago, when I was using an IBM Selectric, I was either backspacing and removing errors with correction fluid or tape, and before that, when I was learning to type on an old Remington Rand portable, I would have to retype the whole damned thing on a clean sheet of paper. The computer has leveraged my time, and I can accomplish more through a somewhat more complex tool than a wood screw.
Evangelicals are taught to see one thing, and one thing only. The goal is to find Jesus in all things, even as they find themselves ignoring the broader world around them. There are those who are the exception, and who can see God -- however you choose to define Him -- in the minutiae of life and living, as well as the macrocosms, but these are rare people, particularly since they're willing and able to declare that we are ultimately responsible for ourselves.
Susan Lancaster is a prime example of this. When she talks about Robert's stroke, she makes it clear: neither God nor Satan gave Robert a stroke. Robert is (or was) overweight, he led a sedentary life, and had ignored several warning signs. Robert was responsible for his stroke. He wasn't being attacked by some guy with horns and a tail, and a penchant for wearing union suits. (Some people are just tooooo kinky.) I would suspect Susan is far more skeptical than she lets on, but that's an entirely different subject, and not appropriate without her involvement.
I often say that Trucking saved me from Religion, and I can offer evidence for this. Last week, as one example, I was in Idaho, running along Highway 75 and US 93. I wound up on a 250 mile deadhead pulling a 48 foot flatbed through some of the most beautiful countryside I've seen in ages, but doing so at around 55-65 (where legal.) Once loaded, I wound up driving south along US 93, but considerably slower in certain parts, simply because the Laws of Physics had changed. Once you put 43,000 lbs. of weight on a trailer, the center of gravity changes for the trailer, (it moves much higher), and you are required to take that into account. Had I been pulling a 53 foot dry van, the center of gravity would have been higher still, and taking those roads at 55, especially while empty, would have been foolhardy, if not suicidal.
Take this to another level: If you're in a relationship with someone with a great deal of emotional baggage, pressing them faster, further, without consideration of what's going on in the present -- as well as without consideration for both the past and future -- is going to get both of you hurt, and hurt badly. (If you haven't been reading the Divorce Thread, you might want to take a look.) I saw this happen to a daughter of a friend who was shipped off to Hiles Anderson College, who was slightly older than the majority of her classmates, and wound up dropping out of school and marrying a drug dealing thief, mainly because of the evangelical penchant for pressing young women into marriage, and "poor Carrie" was nearly 30 and still single. Her daughter, LJ, is an absolute cutie, sharp as a switchblade, nearly 6, and has already learned not to accept the bunk that's been fed her mother... And wants nothing to do with the father who's basically abandoned her because he'd rather deal drugs.
Carrie's mother was trying to tell her daughter that she didn't have to be someone's wife. She only had to be the best person she could be. But the Church intervened. What did we know? According to the pastor involved in all of this, he had prayed, and Jesus had shown the way, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. (BTW: the pastor who recommended that Carrie be sent to Hiles Anderson was the same spiritual thug who tried to hit on my wife. Something to consider.)
I can see the parallels between trucking as the broader world. I'm actively looking for them, and where I don't find them, I look to the other disciplines where they will be found. I have no excuse for not knowing; the evidence is abundant, and it is clear. Saying things that are hurtful create problems, so I try to not do that. I still falter and fail, and try to apologize for errors made, but there's still damage done. This is reality.
Ducky's life, tragically, is on a thread. I have long respected him, and even admired him. But his life is not going to be saved by good wishes, nor is there evidence that we can sit back and wait until a resurrection of spirit to a rebuilt body, one free of titanium and cancer. I want my friend here, and I want him here now, safe and healthy. The only way that will happen is to utilize the tools available, particularly that one called "science," and try to understand and counter the threat to my friend's life. I have no right to trivialize what he's enduring by tossing off a flippant "I'll pray for you!" as I wander off to do whatever it is I think is more important than this man's life. The stakes are far too high.
I resent this. I resent it in part because it denies science, but also because it denies the very heart of the religion that evangelicals claim as their own. They aren't merely standing silently while Fred Phelps, Peter Popoff, Pat Robertson, and others spew their hate and fleece the flock: they're participants through their silence and willful ignorance of what leaders like this are doing. They are participants in the destruction, and helping to erode the lives of others. When you consider the contributions of Bonhoeffer, of Gregor Mendel, of Thomas Aquinas, of Thomas A'Kempis, not just to religion, but to the broader world at large, you can't help but feel insulted by someone bleating about how they've supported the Voice of the Martyrs with their prayers, or how they've taken in a few people here and there. It's amateurism; it's dabbling. It ignores the very realities which the authors of the Gospels said Jesus was trying to awaken us to. It's the kind of childishness, coupled with bleats about how tough it is because of (pick one) finances, health, time... Considering the Apostle Paul is supposed to have countered this in his epistles, and the supposed devotion to the Bible that evangelicals claim, you might think they'd be at the vanguard of serving the community at large, not just the select few who walk through the doors of the sanctuary looking to be saved.
Sorry, but that ground is being claimed more and more by skeptics and their ilk. That it must be done increasingly with public monies is tragic, particularly in light of the billions taken in by churches, and by "ministries" like those of Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland. Jesus loves you; love him with your wallet.
Sorry, God, I don't think you love me, in part because I don't think you exist. And if the only evidence I have for your existence is the activity of Your people, then the evidence diminishes exponentially.
I'm sorry that there are people who refuse to see the evil being done. But if they won't see it, there's nothing that can be done to help them. And so, while many of us will address the one who initiates the conversation, the reality is that we must speak so that those who listen on the periphery will hear, and will learn. Silence is not golden; it's lethal.
Kathy is one of those who will never get it. She wants to believe her "friends," the people who groove on telling her how much Jesus loves her, the same folks who want her as weak as themselves. Kathy wants to believe that Jesus will forgive everything, that when she goes, there won't be any damage left behind by her actions. Kathy wants to believe that there won't be any consequences.
That's not realistic. There are always consequences. And if you don't learn it from your parents, you certainly learn it from the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics, from basic economics, from simple mathematics. It is there to be learned; there is no excuse for not knowing this.
What we have gained over time, starting with learning of simple machines such as the lever, the inclined plane, and the like, is not only ways to save labor, but that our actions have consequences which reach far beyond the immediate area of impact. Our knowledge has transcended the initial stages of utility to something far more. It's hard to see sometimes, but most politicians comprehend such things as leverage, as do most financiers, (though you wouldn't know it by today's economy.) Once you can get into the groove, you can expand on the physical knowledge and take it into other areas. Sometimes it dovetails in well, other times, you have to work your way around it before you get it.
Hence, I would suspect, one reason the author of the Lord's Prayer included the line, "On Earth as it is in Heaven." I think they understood this idea. We deceive ourselves when we start to think that the authors of the Bible were stupid; you need to work your way around how they thought.
Another example: I'm writing this on a laptop. If I make a mistake, I simply click here and there, remove the error, and rewrite. 20 years ago, when I was using an IBM Selectric, I was either backspacing and removing errors with correction fluid or tape, and before that, when I was learning to type on an old Remington Rand portable, I would have to retype the whole damned thing on a clean sheet of paper. The computer has leveraged my time, and I can accomplish more through a somewhat more complex tool than a wood screw.
Evangelicals are taught to see one thing, and one thing only. The goal is to find Jesus in all things, even as they find themselves ignoring the broader world around them. There are those who are the exception, and who can see God -- however you choose to define Him -- in the minutiae of life and living, as well as the macrocosms, but these are rare people, particularly since they're willing and able to declare that we are ultimately responsible for ourselves.
Susan Lancaster is a prime example of this. When she talks about Robert's stroke, she makes it clear: neither God nor Satan gave Robert a stroke. Robert is (or was) overweight, he led a sedentary life, and had ignored several warning signs. Robert was responsible for his stroke. He wasn't being attacked by some guy with horns and a tail, and a penchant for wearing union suits. (Some people are just tooooo kinky.) I would suspect Susan is far more skeptical than she lets on, but that's an entirely different subject, and not appropriate without her involvement.
I often say that Trucking saved me from Religion, and I can offer evidence for this. Last week, as one example, I was in Idaho, running along Highway 75 and US 93. I wound up on a 250 mile deadhead pulling a 48 foot flatbed through some of the most beautiful countryside I've seen in ages, but doing so at around 55-65 (where legal.) Once loaded, I wound up driving south along US 93, but considerably slower in certain parts, simply because the Laws of Physics had changed. Once you put 43,000 lbs. of weight on a trailer, the center of gravity changes for the trailer, (it moves much higher), and you are required to take that into account. Had I been pulling a 53 foot dry van, the center of gravity would have been higher still, and taking those roads at 55, especially while empty, would have been foolhardy, if not suicidal.
Take this to another level: If you're in a relationship with someone with a great deal of emotional baggage, pressing them faster, further, without consideration of what's going on in the present -- as well as without consideration for both the past and future -- is going to get both of you hurt, and hurt badly. (If you haven't been reading the Divorce Thread, you might want to take a look.) I saw this happen to a daughter of a friend who was shipped off to Hiles Anderson College, who was slightly older than the majority of her classmates, and wound up dropping out of school and marrying a drug dealing thief, mainly because of the evangelical penchant for pressing young women into marriage, and "poor Carrie" was nearly 30 and still single. Her daughter, LJ, is an absolute cutie, sharp as a switchblade, nearly 6, and has already learned not to accept the bunk that's been fed her mother... And wants nothing to do with the father who's basically abandoned her because he'd rather deal drugs.
Carrie's mother was trying to tell her daughter that she didn't have to be someone's wife. She only had to be the best person she could be. But the Church intervened. What did we know? According to the pastor involved in all of this, he had prayed, and Jesus had shown the way, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. (BTW: the pastor who recommended that Carrie be sent to Hiles Anderson was the same spiritual thug who tried to hit on my wife. Something to consider.)
I can see the parallels between trucking as the broader world. I'm actively looking for them, and where I don't find them, I look to the other disciplines where they will be found. I have no excuse for not knowing; the evidence is abundant, and it is clear. Saying things that are hurtful create problems, so I try to not do that. I still falter and fail, and try to apologize for errors made, but there's still damage done. This is reality.
Ducky's life, tragically, is on a thread. I have long respected him, and even admired him. But his life is not going to be saved by good wishes, nor is there evidence that we can sit back and wait until a resurrection of spirit to a rebuilt body, one free of titanium and cancer. I want my friend here, and I want him here now, safe and healthy. The only way that will happen is to utilize the tools available, particularly that one called "science," and try to understand and counter the threat to my friend's life. I have no right to trivialize what he's enduring by tossing off a flippant "I'll pray for you!" as I wander off to do whatever it is I think is more important than this man's life. The stakes are far too high.
I resent this. I resent it in part because it denies science, but also because it denies the very heart of the religion that evangelicals claim as their own. They aren't merely standing silently while Fred Phelps, Peter Popoff, Pat Robertson, and others spew their hate and fleece the flock: they're participants through their silence and willful ignorance of what leaders like this are doing. They are participants in the destruction, and helping to erode the lives of others. When you consider the contributions of Bonhoeffer, of Gregor Mendel, of Thomas Aquinas, of Thomas A'Kempis, not just to religion, but to the broader world at large, you can't help but feel insulted by someone bleating about how they've supported the Voice of the Martyrs with their prayers, or how they've taken in a few people here and there. It's amateurism; it's dabbling. It ignores the very realities which the authors of the Gospels said Jesus was trying to awaken us to. It's the kind of childishness, coupled with bleats about how tough it is because of (pick one) finances, health, time... Considering the Apostle Paul is supposed to have countered this in his epistles, and the supposed devotion to the Bible that evangelicals claim, you might think they'd be at the vanguard of serving the community at large, not just the select few who walk through the doors of the sanctuary looking to be saved.
Sorry, but that ground is being claimed more and more by skeptics and their ilk. That it must be done increasingly with public monies is tragic, particularly in light of the billions taken in by churches, and by "ministries" like those of Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland. Jesus loves you; love him with your wallet.
Sorry, God, I don't think you love me, in part because I don't think you exist. And if the only evidence I have for your existence is the activity of Your people, then the evidence diminishes exponentially.
I'm sorry that there are people who refuse to see the evil being done. But if they won't see it, there's nothing that can be done to help them. And so, while many of us will address the one who initiates the conversation, the reality is that we must speak so that those who listen on the periphery will hear, and will learn. Silence is not golden; it's lethal.
Elizabeth I
Philosopher
So you never had any intention of living up to your side of the bargain? Doesn't God have something to say about lying? Doesn't He disapprove of not keeping your word?
We will know how to assess any further posts you make (as if we didn't already.)
Mr Clingford
Master Poster
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2003
- Messages
- 2,104
You sure put a lot of effort into your posts RT!
I think that if I came to the point where I considered it very likely that God didn't exist I might share some views with you. I have experienced things of value in my Xtian life which are true whether God exists or not and have known many Xtians who do walk the walk - being honest with oneself and caring for the needy and outcast are things of value irrespective of the existence of God.
I think that if I came to the point where I considered it very likely that God didn't exist I might share some views with you. I have experienced things of value in my Xtian life which are true whether God exists or not and have known many Xtians who do walk the walk - being honest with oneself and caring for the needy and outcast are things of value irrespective of the existence of God.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 35,104
Did anyone actually expect KK to live up to her end of the bargain?
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Thank you, Sir.
I'm not here to tell you to not believe. I don't do that to my wife, nor do I do it to others. But I will say, please examine the evidence. I can do no more, and no less.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 35,104
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck.......
Mr Clingford
Master Poster
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2003
- Messages
- 2,104
Ta.
I continue to examine the evidence and to question, as I have continually done for the past 19 years! What I believe has changed in consequence.
I continue to examine the evidence and to question, as I have continually done for the past 19 years! What I believe has changed in consequence.
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
About a cord and a half.
KK speaks out of ignorance, and her words will likely appeal to those as ignorant, or more so, than she is. I feel sorry for her. There is much of beauty in religion and the religious, and there is much that is very sad. I don't want to add to anyone's burden.
M.
M.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 35,104
I have to wonder if KK's biblical expertise comes from Chicktracts. Are they still making those?
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Mr Clingford
Master Poster
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2003
- Messages
- 2,104
This is my favourite chick tract http://rubbersuitstudios.com/ptcct.htm
Niggle
Basement Cat's, Evil Twin Skippy
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2008
- Messages
- 674
Roadtoad, I love reading your posts. They're always so thoughtful and beautifully worded. If we could nominate a person for a permanent language award, I would nominate you in a heartbeat.
Unfortunately, your words can't help Kathy, even though she desperately needs them, and that makes me very sad. She can't even get anything useful out of the book she's been assigned to read because she can't get around the fact that it deviates from her mindless praise training. It does not compute.
Kathy, please, stop babbling to us about your mindless praise of Jesus and LISTEN to us! You asked in another thread why people find you offensive. It's because you don't LISTEN to the responses you get and keep blindly bulling ahead with your agenda to preach. That confirms that your ONLY agenda is to preach.
If you're serious about understanding this book, ask us about the parts that are confusing you, then listen to the explanations. If you don't understand them, ask again. Many of these people are endlessly patient and can eventually break it down enough for even a lunkhead like me to understand physics. It's what finally convinced me to register to post; my lack of science background wouldn't make them ridicule me, and I could still make useful input (I hope).
You also have to realize that much of what you're putting forth is opinion. Religious faith is opinion, nothing more. There are no facts involved. You have no facts to prove the existence of your god or Jesus. We have no facts to disprove the existence of your god. You choose to believe because your faith is stronger than your reliance on facts. We choose to not believe because that lack of facts gives us no reason to believe.
As [X] put it (I think), people have different opinions; deal with it. There's nothing wrong with that. It's what makes the world interesting. If you absolutely must associate only with people who share the same opinions as you, this is the wrong place to be.
Unfortunately, your words can't help Kathy, even though she desperately needs them, and that makes me very sad. She can't even get anything useful out of the book she's been assigned to read because she can't get around the fact that it deviates from her mindless praise training. It does not compute.
Kathy, please, stop babbling to us about your mindless praise of Jesus and LISTEN to us! You asked in another thread why people find you offensive. It's because you don't LISTEN to the responses you get and keep blindly bulling ahead with your agenda to preach. That confirms that your ONLY agenda is to preach.
If you're serious about understanding this book, ask us about the parts that are confusing you, then listen to the explanations. If you don't understand them, ask again. Many of these people are endlessly patient and can eventually break it down enough for even a lunkhead like me to understand physics. It's what finally convinced me to register to post; my lack of science background wouldn't make them ridicule me, and I could still make useful input (I hope).
You also have to realize that much of what you're putting forth is opinion. Religious faith is opinion, nothing more. There are no facts involved. You have no facts to prove the existence of your god or Jesus. We have no facts to disprove the existence of your god. You choose to believe because your faith is stronger than your reliance on facts. We choose to not believe because that lack of facts gives us no reason to believe.
As [X] put it (I think), people have different opinions; deal with it. There's nothing wrong with that. It's what makes the world interesting. If you absolutely must associate only with people who share the same opinions as you, this is the wrong place to be.
Good post, Niggle (and good nick, too
).Along with many others, I have quite quickly figured out that KK is here to preach, although she'd like to call what she does "sharing Jesus," or something similar.
Her behavior here seems fanatical to me. I've only ever encountered such behavior in people exactly like her. Such people do not appear to hear (or read, or see) anything that doesn't match the script in their minds. As such, they cannot be engaged in discussion or conversation. Doing so would be akin to talking to a recording.
While she appears to have convinced herself that anyone (ie, us) who doesn't believe exactly what she believes is beyond redemption, she fails to see her own imprisonment.
I doubt if such a person can be reached via an internet messaging board -- people who deprogram brainwashed cultists experience great difficulty in getting such people to think for themselves in real life, and sometimes they fail.
In my opinion, the best that any of us here can do for KK is to ignore her rantings. Sooner or later it will dawn on her that no one's listening.
M.
ETA: Of course,there those with the ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up notion that they can save Kathy. What a weird idea!
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