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An interesting God perspective

I believe that there is a diamond buried in my back yard. It's not accessible as yet but someday natural forces will reveal it to me. The diamond gives me hope for the future. The diamond belongs to me and therefore it gives meaning and purpose to my life. The diamond has special properties and it can bring me good luck. It's mysterious so it doesn't always work to bring me good luck. As it turns out the diamond ensures that good and bad events happen in my life as often as those who don't have diamonds in their back yards. I believe that the diamond is there because my father told me about the diamond and because ancient nomadic people would pass along oral stories and traditions of mysterious diamonds buried in back yards revealed to the people by the diamonds. One day someone wrote down those stories and traditions and so the diamonds no longer reveal their secrets to people.

You really should give props to Sam Harris for that little speech. It's an expanded version of an example given in his book The End of Faith and The Athiest Manifesto. I've seen dozens of variations of it all around the web.
 
I believe that there is a diamond buried in my back yard. It's not accessible as yet but someday natural forces will reveal it to me. The diamond gives me hope for the future. The diamond belongs to me and therefore it gives meaning and purpose to my life. The diamond has special properties and it can bring me good luck. It's mysterious so it doesn't always work to bring me good luck. As it turns out the diamond ensures that good and bad events happen in my life as often as those who don't have diamonds in their back yards. I believe that the diamond is there because my father told me about the diamond and because ancient nomadic people would pass along oral stories and traditions of mysterious diamonds buried in back yards revealed to the people by the diamonds. One day someone wrote down those stories and traditions and so the diamonds no longer reveal their secrets to people.

I don't follow how your discourse here relates to the OP. It seems a satire of those who believe without questioning but the passage quoted here does not appear to come from someone like that.

I agree. Spong seems more focused on the backyard and its pretty flowers and tasty starwberries instead.
 
I believe that there is a diamond buried in my back yard. (1) It's not accessible as yet but someday natural forces will reveal it to me. The diamond gives me hope for the future. The diamond belongs to me and therefore it gives meaning and purpose to my life. (2) The diamond has special properties and it can bring me good luck. It's mysterious so it doesn't always work to bring me good luck. As it turns out the diamond ensures that good and bad events happen in my life as often as those who don't have diamonds in their back yards. (3) I believe that the diamond is there because my father told me about the diamond and because ancient nomadic people would pass along oral stories and traditions of mysterious diamonds buried in back yards revealed to the people by the diamonds. (4) One day someone wrote down those stories and traditions and so the diamonds no longer reveal their secrets to people.

With all the respect, where do you find evidence in the quote in the OP, that the bishop thinks any of 1..4 to be true?


(Perhaps he does think that to be true, but it isn't in the quote in the OP. You can say that he really believes in something more primitive than he says in the OP, and uses more enlightened theology as a strawman for his own views... But then you need evidence to support it)
 
I don't follow how your discourse here relates to the OP. It seems a satire of those who believe without questioning...
No, not even close.

It's from Sam Harris. I wish I had come up with the idea and perhaps I should have given him credit. It demonstrates the absurdity of thinking that we need a god to give our life meaning.

...but the passage quoted here does not appear to come from someone like that.
It was in response to the OP.

I suppose that it is almost universal for human beings, who have the ability to embrace the vastness of the universe and to ask questions about life's meaning, to yearn for a protective, supernatural heavenly parent figure, who watches over us and is the source of that meaning.
The questions are fine. Inventing an answer is, IMO, unnecessary. God is no more a source or requirement for life's meaning than a diamond buried in our back yards.
 
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...where do you find evidence in the quote in the OP, that the bishop thinks any of 1..4 to be true?
Entirely beside my point. I don't know and I don't care. The OP was an opportunity to offer a perspective of the perspective.


Humans don't need imaginary things to give our lives meaning.
  • My children give my life meaning.
  • My wife gives my life meaning.
  • My work gives my life meaning.
  • My contributions to my community give my life meaning.
  • Add to that art, music, laughter, nature, the night sky, friends, parents, conversation, learning, teaching, and in general other people. I live in a society and I belong to that society. There are people who are generally happy to see me when I arrive and I'm happy to see them. What more meaning do you need?
I find the notion of god to give life meaning counterfeit and impoverishing of what really does give life meaning.
If you honestly think that if you need a hidden treasure to give your life meaning then you've got your idea of meaning screwed up.
 
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You really should give props to Sam Harris for that little speech. It's an expanded version of an example given in his book The End of Faith and The Athiest Manifesto. I've seen dozens of variations of it all around the web.
Fair cop. I regret that I didn't. Thanks.
 
Entirely beside my point. I don't know and I don't care. The OP was an opportunity to offer a perspective of the perspective.


Humans don't need imaginary things to give our lives meaning.
  • My children give my life meaning.
  • My wife gives my life meaning.
  • My work gives my life meaning.
  • My contributions to my community give my life meaning.
  • Add to that art, music, laughter, nature, the night sky, friends, parents, conversation, learning, teaching, and in general other people. I live in a society and I belong to that society. There are people who are generally happy to see me when I arrive and I'm happy to see them. What more meaning do you need?
I find the notion of god to give life meaning counterfeit and impoverishing of what really does give life meaning.
If you honestly think that if you need a hidden treasure to give your life meaning then you've got your idea of meaning screwed up.


People would want God to exist only to give a afterlife meaning. All of those end one day, humans are selfish. Most don't want it all to come to a complete stop.
 
No, not even close.

It's from Sam Harris. I wish I had come up with the idea and perhaps I should have given him credit. It demonstrates the absurdity of thinking that we need a god to give our life meaning.

It was in response to the OP.

The questions are fine. Inventing an answer is, IMO, unnecessary. God is no more a source or requirement for life's meaning than a diamond buried in our back yards.

Thanks for the explanation.
 
Entirely beside my point. I don't know and I don't care. The OP was an opportunity to offer a perspective of the perspective.
I don't think it's a perspective of the perspective if he doesn't actually believe that, which it doesn't appear he does. It's simply your perspective, which is fine.
I find the notion of god to give life meaning counterfeit and impoverishing of what really does give life meaning.
If you honestly think that if you need a hidden treasure to give your life meaning then you've got your idea of meaning screwed up.

Here is where we part company. If you want to say that god is not required to give life meaning, I have no quarrel with that. But the claim that people who require it (and many people feel they do need god in their lives) are screwed up is just as judgemental (and IMO just as wrong) as theists who feel that those who don't need god in thier lives are screwed up. God may not be necessary, but neither is eating meat. Both are viable choices for human beings, both have their good points and their drawbacks.
 
Here is where we part company. If you want to say that god is not required to give life meaning, I have no quarrel with that. But the claim that people who require it (and many people feel they do need god in their lives) are screwed up is just as judgemental (and IMO just as wrong) as theists who feel that those who don't need god in thier lives are screwed up. God may not be necessary, but neither is eating meat. Both are viable choices for human beings, both have their good points and their drawbacks.
Thanks Beth.

Well, to be sure my point is that it is the perception of what meaning is that is screwed up, not the person. If I knew someone who took comfort in the fact that he or she had a diamond buried in their back yard and they looked to the diamond to get meaning for their life then I would honestly think that they had a false sense of meaning. Same with god.

I was a believer and I held that point of view. Looking back I can see how it's an empty crutch. Think of it like the child who has an invisible friend. It's fine for children but what point is it for adults?

My mother, father, brothers and sisters are all believers. Nearly everyone I know and love are believers. I don't look down on them for it. There's not a person on earth I love more or respect more than my mom. But I still think her belief in an imaginary being in the sky is an empty one.
 
The following is a response to a letter from someone who asked Bishop John Shelby Spong who he prayed to.:

I suppose that it is almost universal for human beings, who have the ability to embrace the vastness of the universe and to ask questions about life's meaning, to yearn for a protective, supernatural heavenly parent figure, who watches over us and is the source of that meaning. That sense probably comes from our childhoods when parents seemed invincible and able to fix anything or to manage any crisis.
The problem with that yearning for God to play that role as you point out is twofold. First, it does not work. Tsunamis do roll over the world with no sense of the trauma it inflicts on its victims and with no one protecting even little children. People die in warfare despite the fervent prayers of both the military personnel and their parents. Second, this yearning keeps us in a delusional state of perpetual childhood where we can pretend that we do not have to take care of ourselves. Delusions can be pleasant but they are not life giving.
The interesting issue you raise is that you assume that if there is no supernatural parent figure deity in the sky then there is no reason to pray and no purpose in life. If there is no life after death, the purpose for God disappears. In these ideas you are suggesting that if your definition of God is not true, there is no God!
Let me seek to unravel some of that by quoting a Greek philosopher, Xenophanes, who said, "If horses had gods, they would look like horses." Have you taken time to examine how much your image of God looks like a very big, all powerful human being? I doubt if it will ever be otherwise for human beings cannot think outside their human experience. A horse cannot ever know what it means to be human. A human being cannot ever know what it means to be God. Yet human beings constantly tell other human beings who God is and how God acts. Therefore, step number one is to admit that you do not know.
That does not mean that horses cannot experience human beings in their lives or that human beings cannot experience that which we call God in our lives. It does mean that the desire to be deluded does give rise to delusion. But is the human brain the ultimate reality? Or is there a sense of otherness? Of transcendence? Of the fullness of life? Of the power of love? Of the Ground of Being? Can consciousness be expanded? Boundaries broken? Humanity know transformation? Is this a God moment? Are these the imprints of the holy 'other' coming into our limited understanding?
We have no God language so words become terribly inept in making sense out of this experience. That is why almost every religious pilgrimage winds up in mysticism. Prayer is the conscious attempt to enter the transcendent moment. It is not an adult letter addressed to a divine Santa Claus.
That is what I mean by prayer. Does it work? That is not for me to say. Does love surround those for whom you are concerned? Does love assist healing? Expand life? Is love the presence of God within us loosed by one to surround another? Do plants grow better if we talk to them? Is the universe a living, throbbing, mystical God-infused place? Is God a being among many or the ground of all that is? Was Jesus perceived as an incarnation of an external supernatural God or was he so whole, so at one, that people saw the source of life and love and, therefore, God flowing through him?
Those are the questions I would raise. God is real to me but not definable, only "experiencible." However, that is what gives every moment of life both its depth and its ultimate meaning. Life is a tremendous and wonderful adventure that touches eternity time after time. The idea that something you call meaningless now would become meaningful by being extended beyond death is a strange idea to me. I believe in life after death because I touch eternity and meaning now. That is enough for me.
-- John Shelby Spong

I think Spong's name is kind of funny to say with your mouth, too, CasaRojo.
 
I was quiet the opposite. I was raised without religion though culturally Christian. My mother tried to take me to church but there was really nothing there for me. I spent most of my time in the creek infront of my grandparents finding crawdads, salamanders and water bugs.

From about age 17 to 21 I was a militant atheist. Scratch that, I was an evangelical atheist. I'd go to Campus Crusade for Christ in College and try to destroy the Christian faithful because I thought it was poisonous and destructive to people. Convert the Infidels! I thought I was doing them a favor. I expected to run into William Jennings Bryant, Falwell and Robertson.

Instead, the beliefs I held about Christians was torn down, my beliefs about Religion was torn down. I couldn't remain an Atheist.

I delved into Philosophy and Religion. Stumbled across Asatru and converted on the spot.

Looking back, I cannot fathom how I could justify the Atheist position; It is being in a room with no exists and claiming that nothing exists outside the room.
 
Looking back, I cannot fathom how I could justify the Atheist position; It is being in a room with no exists and claiming that nothing exists outside the room.

It is nothing like that for me. For me it is simply noting that there is no more evidence for gods or the supernatural than for unicorns and oompa loompas. I'm not in a room, I'm in a vast, beautiful, amazing universe that I haven't the faintest hope of fully understanding. The horizons of learning and exploration are virtually limitless. No matter how much I learn there will still be wonders to amaze me and the rest of humanity for as long as our species survives. And I've never claimed that nothing exists beyond what we know, simply that I've never seen any reason to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden.
 
Egil, let's put it like this:

Let's say I really were in a huge room with no exits, let's say a huge cave complex in fact, with a bunch of people who also never saw what's outside. That's the important part.

But several of them want me to believe their particular fairy tale about the outside.

One group insists that outside there are dwarves and elves and mighty magicians locked in an eternal war outside. One insists that it's an utopia with pink unicorns and rivers of milk and honey. Another one insists that the cave is just a big lab and people in lab-coats observe us through the cracks. Yet another group thinks that the world outside is a big radioactive desert, and there must be a good reason why we're sealed in the cave. One group insists that this is actually the outside, and those stone walls are just an illusion. Etc.

A few guys spread among the groups think that some entitites from outside are sending messages into their brains. Mostly telling them to hate the other groups.

Do I have any reason to believe any of them? No. Not really.

Do I have any reason to let any such group run my life and tell me what to do? No. Not really.

Of course, I couldn't flat out say "there can't be anything outside." And any sane atheist won't say "there can't be any deity, period" either.

But there is no reason to build any complex theories about that outside, based on no more than... having no actual data. We'll worry about that "outside" when we can get there.
 
That makes sense Hans, the most important thing I've learned is only worry about what you can control. We'll let the outside affect us when we get there.
 
What's so "interesting" about this perspective? I don't see anything I haven't heard before... about a million times
 
Instead, the beliefs I held about Christians was torn down, my beliefs about Religion was torn down. I couldn't remain an Atheist.
Hi Egil,

I'm curious as to what beliefs about religion and Christians that you had that needed to be torn down? I don't understand that. I honestly believe that Christians and the religious are much like I am. They're just people with, biases, prejudices, wants and needs like me. The difference is that the religious people believe in things without evidence.

I delved into Philosophy and Religion. Stumbled across Asatru and converted on the spot.
I wish you the best. I'm happy to debate firmly my position but in the end I think people should be free to decide for themselves.

Looking back, I cannot fathom how I could justify the Atheist position; It is being in a room with no exists and claiming that nothing exists outside the room.
The inverse would be for a Christian to find a bottle on a beach and claiming that a genii lived inside.

You have a rather odd take on atheism. I've never met an atheist with your views.

For me, I was Mormon and I believed that I knew the truth. So much so that I sold everything I had, left my girlfriend at the age of 18 and served a two year mission.

I can easily see how someone could be religious or a Christian. Not because the theology is reasonable but because I understand human nature.

I can't say that I'll never believe but it's extremely unlikely. I came to atheism kicking and screaming. I didn't want it to be true. However I made a commitment to the truth and I eventually had to honor that and that meant giving up a belief in something without any evidence.
 
Being the god cynic that I am, it sounds to me like no more than an apology for why there is no evidence of any real gods.
Agreed. There seem to be quite a few Bishops an Archbishops who are finding it more and more difficult to answer questions about their own belief in God. They are tying themselves up in knots, using dozens of words to hide the fact that they have long since realised they are praying to and worshipping .....well ... nothing. I wonder what their internal dialogue is to justify telling so many people that what they are saying about 'the God of love' etc is true?
 

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