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VisionFromFeeling - General discussion thread

So, now you're under the impression that she only does readings for close friends and family, right? And you think it's harmless stuff, right? Try reading her website, specifically this page:
http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/observations.html

"I used this ability on a new person who I had just met that day and I had received absolutely no information about his health condition."

"If this were to continue the heart wall would become enlarged to the point of compressing the large artery through which blood enters the heart and leading to a heart failure. I told him about this and said that so far when it has been possible to check my information against facts I have not been incorrect yet and that therefore I need to share this information with him."

And...

"I decided to confide in a person I recently met that I have an ability of perceiving and describing health information and asked if I could try this with him."

"I detected a significantly low stroke volume (the amount of blood the heart pushes out at a contraction) of up to 80% of the blood remaining in the ventricles."

Hmm. I hope this is an example which is not representative of VfFs future endevours.My stance at the moment is that I would like to take VfFs word for it when she says she intends not to diagnose illnesses untill the ability is scientifically proven. I will consider new facts when they are presented. I can only respond to your question that I am sincerly glad we have people like you here. I hope I got my point across: I support your site, and hope to visit more frequently. As many has pointed out, a key to success in a website like yours and Lancasters is to be respectful, polite and a tad pedantic. From what I have read, I think you are on to something.:th:

Eirik
 
Okay, maybe I'm being naive here, but how exactly is it harmful to tell someone, "I felt that you are sick, go to the doctor"?

Just reading your post I sense that you have some potentially serious blockage in your heart. While I have never been verified to be incorrect, you must not assume I am right this time. I just had to tell you. It's like when I sensed a co-worker had ovarian cysts and sure enough she had surgery a few months later. So, maybe you should see a cardiologist.

What? No insurance? Well, I may be wrong.

Hey! Stop crying. I know you're a father of three and just canceled your life insurance due to getting laid off, but it's just a reading. It's not scientifically proven. It's just that I've never been proven wrong.
 
Oh, yeah, I forget you Americans don't have free healthcare. :P
 
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[...]

I experience a richer world of perception than do most. When I look at a page of physics equations, it comes to life in my mind, not as rows of variables but as shapes, colors, patterns and vibrational aspects, that interact on their own in my mind to show the results of their interaction, that I then translate back into physical significance. [...]

[...]

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Are you saying you can think like Daniel Tammet?

Take a look at these CBS News, 60 Minutes videos with Daniel talking clearly about many facets of his life and abilities

NewScientist article by Celeste Biever
Inside the mind of an autistic savant

VFF: Do you truly excel at numbers and things?

Just an observation, but I don't remember seeing your media presence on 60 Minutes.
 
Are you saying you can think like Daniel Tammet?

The Vibrational Algebra thing is something she has been saying for a while. The whole "shapes and colors" being manipulated in her mind is new. In fact it started right around the time she added the link about Daniel Tammet to her own website.

VFF has a way of integrating new things she learns. We saw it time and again in the original VFF thread and teased her about it.
 
Hmm, that's interesting her observational abilities mimic Daniel Tammet's after she added the link.

But can she recount anywhere near the amount of decimal places of Pi, like Daniel was able to recall? "I'm tasting Apple... no cherry... yes, definitely cherry pie" does not count as a successful paranormal ability. No $1 Million for Anita...
 
I came to the JREF Forums expecting to meet Skeptics who would engage in my investigation, which aims to look into my experiences of correlation between what I experience and with the way the world is mutually experienced....I really think I have a very fascinating research topic going on, and I was hoping that some of you would be happy to be included in that, as, I am unable to conclude on my investigation without the participation of good Skeptics. And I thought that's why you are here.

I've offered to help with some simple tests, but you've decided that medical tests (which are much, much harder to arrange) were preferable.
 
and most always it is harmless stuff like, "Honey, your neck muscle is tired today", or "Hon, you really need to go to the bathroom!"

Why, in the name of Odin's beard, would you need to tell anyone that? Can't most people over the age of three figure it out for themselves? Do they really want to be told? Moreover, aren't these the sort of things that people without "vision from feeling" might be able to perceive through physical clues?
 
I think it is probably safer I post here than in the other thread since discussing my claims is obviously not relevant to discussing a website that is discussing my claims. :confused:

So, let me reply to the compilation of random posts that were brought here from the other thread:
UncaYimmy said:
You were all for the site a couple of days ago.
I still am.
UncaYimmy said:
It really doesn't matter to me if you're okay with my site or not.
Yes it does. If I find excessively offensive lies that I feel are hurtful (and trust me, I've shown a high tolerance) and also violate my rights as a person (yes, we claimants are persons too) posted about me on your site I will first contact you and if no measures are taken by you I will contact the appropriate legal representative. If I find justifiable reason to object to your website created about me I will definitely make it matter to you as well.
UncaYimmy said:
So, now you're under the impression that she only does readings for close friends and family, right?
Everyone listed on my medical perceptions page were family, close friends, or Skeptics from the local Skeptics Group.
UncaYimmy quoting me said:
"I used this ability on a new person who I had just met that day (...)
A friend.
UncaYimmy quoting me said:
"If this were to continue the heart wall would become enlarged to the point of compressing the large artery through which blood enters the heart and leading to a heart failure. I told him about this and said that so far when it has been possible to check my information against facts I have not been incorrect yet and that therefore I need to share this information with him."
A friend. He confirmed heart problem in the family and having felt heart problems himself. I would only tell (my friends) about very serious health perceptions like this when it is... very serious. Put me in jail for telling a friend to have a chat with his doctor next time about his heart. Many people should have a talk with their doctor about their heart anyway.
UncaYimmy quoting me said:
"I decided to confide in a person I recently met that I have an ability of perceiving and describing health information and asked if I could try this with him."
Friend.

[VFF off topic]
Senex said:
Mexican lobsters to the rescue. I'm glad I have strong bladder control. That was funny.
How cute. You watched it. :) I will post some cartoons here for you. :) (Not meant as condescending, here's a girl who for most of her young life aspired to become a cartoonist! In fact, I recently bought a software program to do that but haven't gotten to it yet...)
[/VFF off topic]

Ernie M said:
Are you saying you can think like Daniel Tammet?
When I perceive and process what I call vibrational information, it is very reminiscent of how Daniel describes how he processes numbers. However I have not established real-world correlation with my vibrational thought processing. Maybe I will? Mine is in terms of vibrational patterns, not numbers. To me, numbers are vibrational patterns. So maybe for Daniel Tammet, vibrational patterns are numbers? :confused:
Ernie M said:
VFF: Do you truly excel at numbers and things?
Numbers no, but things, perhaps. Read about what I call Vibrational algebra on the bottom of this page.

UncaYimmy said:
The whole "shapes and colors" being manipulated in her mind is new. In fact it started right around the time she added the link about Daniel Tammet to her own website.
And what's that supposed to mean?!eleven!
VisionFromFeeling said:
and most always it is harmless stuff like, "Honey, your neck muscle is tired today", or "Hon, you really need to go to the bathroom!"
Lucian said:
Why, in the name of Odin's beard, would you need to tell anyone that? Can't most people over the age of three figure it out for themselves? Do they really want to be told? Moreover, aren't these the sort of things that people without "vision from feeling" might be able to perceive through physical clues?
I just like to tell my closest friends what I perceive about them, that's all. And I don't know whether it could be detected by others. I just know that I do.
 
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Yes it does. If I find excessively offensive lies that I feel are hurtful (and trust me, I've shown a high tolerance) and also violate my rights as a person (yes, we claimants are persons too) posted about me on your site I will first contact you and if no measures are taken by you I will contact the appropriate legal representative. If I find justifiable reason to object to your website created about me I will definitely make it matter to you as well.
This really belonged in the other thread. I'm sorry that you cannot differentiate between discussing the website and discussing your claims. Like I said, I don't care if you're "okay" with the site or not. If I am doing something that is actionable court, that's a completely different matter. No need to huff and puff about it.

Everyone listed on my medical perceptions page were family, close friends, or Skeptics from the local Skeptics Group.
A friend.
A friend.
It's amazing to me how you can contradict yourself and not think anybody is going to notice. Somebody you just met that day or "just recently" is not a "close friend."

I would only tell (my friends) about very serious health perceptions like this when it is... very serious.
Which contradicts what you said before:
I will continue to tell my loved ones what I sense about them. Because everyone does that, and most always it is harmless stuff like, "Honey, your neck muscle is tired today", or "Hon, you really need to go to the bathroom!"


The truth is that you have told people you barely know that they have potentially serious health problems. That's a far cry from telling "loved ones" mostly "harmless" stuff.

Put me in jail for telling a friend to have a chat with his doctor next time about his heart. Many people should have a talk with their doctor about their heart anyway.
You can justify it all you want, but the point is you are being inconsistent at best and deliberately misleading at worst.

When I perceive and process what I call vibrational information, it is very reminiscent of how Daniel describes how he processes numbers. However I have not established real-world correlation with my vibrational thought processing. Maybe I will?
If you haven't established a real-world connection, why would you tell us, I perceive images of the cells of plants and perceive the vibrational aspect of their molecules. I can take those vibrational understandings of the molecules and in my mind apply them to a variety of theoretical situations, and have discovered for instance a plant that has a very potent cancer remedy. I've also seen a cancer remedy in an orange mushroom, except that this molecule would also destroy the human kidneys.


And what's that supposed to mean?!eleven!
What that is supposed to mean is that you didn't start mentioning colors and shapes until you saw the show about Daniel.

I just like to tell my closest friends what I perceive about them, that's all.
Closest friends being defined as people you just met that day. It also means the people at FACT. It also means the people here on JREF whose pictures you attempted to read and failed.
 
Yes it does. If I find excessively offensive lies that I feel are hurtful (and trust me, I've shown a high tolerance) and also violate my rights as a person (yes, we claimants are persons too) posted about me on your site I will first contact you and if no measures are taken by you I will contact the appropriate legal representative. If I find justifiable reason to object to your website created about me I will definitely make it matter to you as well.

What you "find" really isnt that much of an issue under US law.
>>>If I find excessively offensive lies that I feel are hurtful

Not enough ( the 1st Amendment) YOU will have to establish those "lies" were deliberately done with malicious intent and that you have suffered damage. The worst problem you are going to face is that these"lies" will have to be PROvEN to be lies by YOU. ( the burden of proof is on the plaintiff) so in order for you to claim a "lie" in the first place, you will have to show what the "truth" is. ( in other words, you would have to be tested by a LEGITIMATE authority and PROVEN to have such ability or you cant claim "lie" because TRUTH is an ABSOLUTE DEFENSE whether the truth is "offensive" and/or "hurts" you or not")

>>>I will contact the appropriate legal representative. If I find justifiable reason to object to your website created about me I will definitely make it matter to you as well

I see your legal skills are on par with all your others.
 
I am deeply offended that some of you would not consider me to be entitled to my own world of thoughts, perception, and information processing, which is most essential to what a conscious human being is and has the right to be.


You have nothing to be offended about. Nobody is denying your right to your own world of thoughts. But you've decided to share that world with us, on our turf as it were. We have rights too, you know, and commenting on what you share with us is one of them.

I might also point out that your being deeply offended by imaginary assaults on your personal freedom is irrelevant. Surprising as it might seem, the world is under no obligation to avoid offending Anita Ikonen, and to carry on as though that were the case is causing offense itself. You may have noticed that some people are offended enough that they've taken up the cause against your ridiculous fantasy world on another website. Would you like a link?



To consider that what I experience that is personal and subjective to me should be considered mental illness when it does not interfere with my way of life and when in fact my unusual processing skills are what make me an exceptional student in conventional science. What I experience seems to be very similar to synesthesia, which, by definition is not a mental illness and typically not even a handicap.


Most of this is gibberish, but I'll respond to the bit about "interfering with your way of life".

Look at the amount of material you've published. Hundreds of hours work have gone into your web site, your contributions here and with other groups, and into all the ancillary stuff that goes with it, such as writing letters etc.

Now let's look at some results. It won't take long.


  • You have failed to convince a single person of your ability. Not one.

  • You're further away from testing than ever. You may think you've made personal progress, but all you've done is reinforce your own delusion.

  • Out here in the real world, you've alienated most of the people who were at one time in a position to help you. You've made that point yourself.

  • Despite the millions of words that have been written so far about VfF, not a single one has ever appeared under the heading "Test Results". Not a single validated result.

  • A recent online poll reveals that 38% of respondents feel that "She needs the help of a mental health professional" and 22% voted that "She's setting up for a future scam" These are your only measurable result to date.
If these things were on my list of recent achievements, I'd be thinking "Hmm, this is interfering with my way of life." Your mileage appears to vary.



I experience a richer world of perception than do most. When I look at a page of physics equations, it comes to life in my mind, not as rows of variables but as shapes, colors, patterns and vibrational aspects, that interact on their own in my mind to show the results of their interaction, that I then translate back into physical significance. When I look at the abbreviated letters of chemical elements, they are not just letters, they are color, shape, and vibration. And when I look at human bodies, I perceive vibrational information, that translates on its own in my mind into images of human tissue, felt perception of pain or discomfort, heartbeat, swallowing or breathing. I can look at a flower from inside a car and perceive its scent to a most wonderful extent, even flowers that we don't smell with our noses. I walk by the aisles at a store and can look at the foods and perceive what they taste like. It is a wonderful and rich experience and perception of the world.


It is a delusion. You cannot do any of these things.

You do not have any data with which to refute these statements.

Do not refer me to your web site. It's a fairytale.



It does nothing to harm me, or others. I have the ordinary perception as well, and can distinguish between the two. It does not interfere with my understanding of the world otherwise, as a very dull and boring place as seen by others. And I conclude my perceptions to be subjective to me, knowing that others don't see or feel what I do, as opposed to immediately assuming them to be reality-based or "extrasensory" - with the possible exception of the medical perceptions which have shown some compelling correlation.


I am only able to gauge your understanding of the world by reading what you have written, both here and elsewhere on the WWW.

It's dodgy.



I am offended that some of you would consider this to be wrong, just because it is unusual, or is not experienced by the collective of you. Skepticism is not about fighting what is unusual, but to trying to explain and to understand that which you yourself do not perceive or experience. I don't understand why I am under constant attack.


You are unqualified to redefine skepticism. The poor attempt you have made here is demonstrative of this fact.



I came to the JREF Forums expecting to meet Skeptics who would engage in my investigation, which aims to look into my experiences of correlation between what I experience and with the way the world is mutually experienced. I am being entirely honest about my descriptions of my experience, I am not a liar and I am not stalling progress on purpose. I wish all of you could see, that I am really working toward progressing with the study and reaching toward a final test of my claim. My claim of perceiving correlating medical information in people. And I am open to the other possibility, that they would not correlate.


They don't. Now go and do something useful.



I wish some of you would let go of the bickering over small details and of magnifying your misconceptions and false conclusions about me as a person and as a paranormal claimant and investigator into my claim, based on what your pre-conceived ideas seem to be about a paranormal claimant or the agendas that I *should* be having with my investigation and my being here.


Well, you can do it your way, or you can do as the Forum suggests. That choice will always be yours.

How would you say the "go it alone" approach has worked so far?



I really think I have a very fascinating research topic going on, and I was hoping that some of you would be happy to be included in that, as, I am unable to conclude on my investigation without the participation of good Skeptics. And I thought that's why you are here.


I have a fascinating research topic going on as well. Others here are happy to be involved in it. We will be able to conclude the investigation with or without the participation of the subject. That's why we are here.



I will stay here, as, there is nowhere else to go . . .


Yes there is. Would you like me to send you a link?



. . . But I will keep hoping on things to become more civil.


I will also hope on things that you become more civil, although I thought you were doing fine in that regard myself. What are the best types of things on which to do my hoping? I have a comfy chair, will that do? Or should I use a participle?



There are ways to express concerns or allegations without becoming rude or hostile. Please adopt that principle, as have I.


I'm not going to quote you on anything here, but you aren't an angel in that regard either, Sweetie.



This Claimant-Skeptics relationship is a rather difficult one. But I am making it work, it has to, for the sake of my investigation. :p


That's going straight to the quotes thread on that Meanie™ site. Pure gold.


:hypnotize

Waenre
 
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<rant-o-snip>

If I find excessively offensive lies that I feel are hurtful (and trust me, I've shown a high tolerance) and also violate my rights as a person (yes, we claimants are persons too) posted about me on your site I will first contact you and if no measures are taken by you I will contact the appropriate legal representative. If I find justifiable reason to object to your website created about me I will definitely make it matter to you as well.


The Collective said:
Hello and welcome __________________ (insert name)


This is the internet, and the inhabitants may say things that you find hurtful. Please build a bridge and get over it. Your assimilation will be completed shortly.


Thank you.


fourteen of eleventy


Or words to that effect.
 
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Not enough ( the 1st Amendment) YOU will have to establish those "lies" were deliberately done with malicious intent and that you have suffered damage. The worst problem you are going to face is that these"lies" will have to be PROvEN to be lies by YOU. ( the burden of proof is on the plaintiff) so in order for you to claim a "lie" in the first place, you will have to show what the "truth" is. ( in other words, you would have to be tested by a LEGITIMATE authority and PROVEN to have such ability or you cant claim "lie" because TRUTH is an ABSOLUTE DEFENSE whether the truth is "offensive" and/or "hurts" you or not")

...so if UY presented material on his site that really drove VFF nuts, and she would try to sue him, she would have to be properly tested before the case would proceed?

That's your cue, UY!
 
...so if UY presented material on his site that really drove VFF nuts, and she would try to sue him, she would have to be properly tested before the case would proceed?

That's your cue, UY!

Thats 100% correct. The 1st Amendment covers hurtful speech as well as "unpopular" speach as well. ( there are limits such as threats,yelling "fire" in a building and such)

"I dont like it" or "it hurts my feewings" isnt a ground for suit.

Suing for defamation ( or any variant) has about the highest bar of all US law because it "defines" and is weighed against the 1st Amendment.

The basic criteria that must be met is: ( all of this burden is on the plaintiff)

1) the statement MUST be false and provable to a legal standard. ( so if the alleged "lie" is that UY claims that VFF doesnt have an ability- the burden WILL be on VFF to PROVE that she has "the ability" otherwise the statement cannot be "proven" to be a lie)

2) True or false the statement MUST be presented as a FACT and deliberate. ( expressing an OPINION, even if wrong and causes harm is protected speech and not actionable[ if this wasnt in place, every commentator on every subject would be sued daily])

3) The plaintiff MUST PROVE the comments were made with DELIBERATE malice. ( for example, if a person "believed" they were performing a public service, thats not malice.) Thats a HIGH bar.

4) The plaintiff MUST show they were damaged in a quantifiable way such as loss of wage/reputation etc.

Theres almost no chance whatsoever that she would have grounds ( not to mention a lot of money to even bring such an action in Federal Court) and even less that it would survive a motion to dismiss for lack of cause.
 
Thats 100% correct. The 1st Amendment covers hurtful speech as well as "unpopular" speach as well. ( there are limits such as threats,yelling "fire" in a building and such)

"I dont like it" or "it hurts my feewings" isnt a ground for suit.

Out of curiosity, how about publicly accusing someone of illegal actions, without proof?

I ask because you may want to proceed with caution there, Anita. Your talk of "legal representatives" may come around to bite you.

VisionFromFeeling said:
Yes it does. If I find excessively offensive lies that I feel are hurtful (and trust me, I've shown a high tolerance) and also violate my rights as a person (yes, we claimants are persons too) posted about me on your site I will first contact you and if no measures are taken by you I will contact the appropriate legal representative. If I find justifiable reason to object to your website created about me I will definitely make it matter to you as well

A person? Did you not come here and post the unsolicited claim that you consider yourself to be an extraterrestrial incarnation from a white dwarf star near Arcturus? In fact, if I recall correctly, two gentlemen who are administrators at another website offered evidence that you specifically asked them to delete your membership in the forum on their site, because their software required you to be classified as a human. I recall that you were rather bummed when UncaYimmy pointed out that one has to be human to be awarded the Nobel Prize. I further recall that you were offered several opportunities to withdraw that claim, and you refused to do so.

Do you truly think that, even if you got a case of defamation against UncaYimmy to court, in light of this specific claim, AND all your other claims, any judge would take you seriously? He'd laugh you out the door.

For that matter, there's that little iffy problem of your claims of diagnosing illnesses and health conditions without benefit of a medical license, using an ability that doesn't exist. No telling how a judge might interpret that evidence.

As well, you've added a link to UncaYimmy's website on your own home page - referring to it as a "fansite". I have a screenshot of it. This indicates approval, even before Unca's site is complete. You can't scream approval one minute, and then turn around and threaten legal action over legally protected content, simply because you want to control that content and you can't.

Basic rule in real life, Anita: You. don't. get. it. both. ways.
 
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I might also point out that not everything is covered by the First Amendment. Australia would be one of them.

;)


ETA:

Anita. Your talk of "legal representatives" may come around to bite you.


It will have to line up behind a whole lot of other talk with the same objective.
 
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