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Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

And a corset! Please let there be a corset!!

Hokulele's been banned? From what? For why?
 
Ladewig said:
I would add:

3) an open-minded forum. Such a discussion could occur on most skeptic boards, but I know a couple Christian discussion boards where suggesting the type of discussion you are considering would get one banned.
Click to expand...

JetLeg said:
Can you post a link?
Click to expand...

I see I picked a most inopportune time to talk about getting banned.

I made the claim based on the number of JREF posters who said that they were banned from Christian forums for asking these types of questions. I have no personal experience with getting banned from a Christian forum.

I did a quick Google and the second board I looked at included a FAQ saying: "Do not hold the Bible to be the Word of God? We are not interested, then."

If you'd like to talk about this aspect of the issue in greater detail, I'd be willing to start a new thread.
 
kurious_kathy said:
Rt I am not trying to find an oppt just to preach but I do find it tiresome to play the intellectual game as their is no end to it and all I feel sometimes is worn out and no one really wants to hear what I have to say anyway. Because of my health I also have to take lots of rests in between being on jref, not to mention I do have other things I want to do so it is more an issue of time than anything else. Also I need to figure out how to turn on my notification when someone replies as it hasn't worked for quite a while now which really makes it a bit tougher to keep up especially if I am off the interent for a couple days.

As for this homeless family I did mention how we helped them. They stayed with us over 6 weeks in our home and then we helped them get another temporary place as it was just too crowded in here for 2 families plus our septic/ and well water cannot hold up with so many people. (We need a deeper well but have not been able to afford it since we bought this palce.) We are still trying to help them but this gal needs more than just us to help her as she is a widow and I do not think she knows how to take care of herself and her kids very easily without her husband. One thing about stay at home moms they do not always have an easy time trying to get out in the work force but since I had done it in the past I am trying to be supportive. I just sent her 2 adds via the internet tonight and will try to follow up with her and maybe even try to offer to drive her to these places for moral support. I do what I can but we are having some difficulties around our house these days too as my hubby lost his job and he needs to try to find something. It really has been a hard year for a lot of people.
Click to expand...

Okay, once we get past the lame excuses, maybe we can accomplish something. But until then, let me leave you with this for you consideration...

What you are describing as an "intellectual game," Kathy, is anything but. This is actually pretty serious business, and I find it galling that folks like you ignore the reality that Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics take such things as Eternity far more seriously than you do, yourself. It is precisely because there is the understanding for us that once life ends, that's it, end of story. What impact we have must be made while we live; we don't get a second chance, nor do we get "forgiven" for all our errors, with all the ill effects of those destructive acts wiped away by some invisible hand.

This "intellectual game" is not about confusing the faithful, or ignoring the realities of life. Most of us would like for there to be a finality to these discussions, even as we realize there probably won't be. The issues involved are far beyond ourselves, even as we struggle to put words to concepts that exceed human thought. We want to understand these things, these realities, and have come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion. Even if we were to accept your ideals regarding a god, the essence remains: we are human, and it is our desire to understand, and to understand better.

This is at the root of science, as well as philosophy. In the 50's, it was believed the smallest object was the molecule. Today, we're examining the subatomic, and perhaps even smaller than that. (I was astonished to learn we'd managed to split neutrons back in the '80's. Can we do better than that?) It comes down to asking how far we can go.

And while there are those who would tell us we have no "right" to inquire further, (such as Pope John Paul II and Jerry Falwell), the reality is that when it comes to the mind, the most ethical, the most moral thing we can do is to learn and understand. There is no "Right" or "Wrong" here, just Knowledge and Ignorance.

Now, I'm sorry that you find this so frustrating, but here's a little tip for you: Intelligent people will ask questions, not because we groove on the argument, but because it is through the argument that we discover the facts, and ultimately have a greater grasp of the realities that are well beyond ourselves. It's part of what makes us human, in case you hadn't realized, and part of the problem I have with the analogy of man having a "god shaped hole" in his heart is that it ignores the fact that sometimes, the god in question is just too damned small.

In other words, Kathy, I'm rejecting pat answers to serious questions. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I need serious answers, not just "It was good enough for XXXX, so it ought to be good enough for you." That's an act of contempt and intellectual laziness, it is ultimately degrading to the beliefs you aspire to, and to those who have gone before.

For you consideration, I would suggest you read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship, (a great read regardless of what you believe.) The reality is that you are presenting to us the very same cheap discipleship which Bonhoeffer abhorred, preached against, and which ultimately took his life. When he was being led to be hanged, his final words were said to be, "This is the end; for me, the beginning of life."

You may interpret Bonhoeffer's words as you choose, but for someone like me, I look at what the man did in his years on this Earth, and realize that his belief inspired him to go well beyond himself, and to challenge one of the most evil regimes ever to exist. He could not have accomplished this following the same kind of cheap grace you seem to preach here, nor the kind of easy believism which you seem to think we need. Sorry, there's a higher standard at work in this, and the easy way out is not going to cut it. I may no longer accept Bonhoeffer's beliefs, but I still uphold and respect what he represented. It cost him everything, and it was tried in the fire and shown to be good. Whether or not you like it is immaterial; because of this man's actions, lives were saved. Perhaps not as many as could be, but still, the effort was made to bring down the genuine evil he saw, even as others capitulated.

You have ignored the basic reality about the Gospel you preach, that it is supposed to be the difference between Life and Death. As you bleat to people like Ducky that Jesus gave them cancer so they would love God, you ignore the realities behind the disease you declare a tool of the divine. Even worse, you degrade the remarkable courage of this man, and those who have fought it in the past. You degrade people with this, and ultimately deny us the very humanity that you claim you want to save. Who's playing intellectual games, Kathy?

When you perpetuate silly cliches, absurd analogies, and childish head games, you deny that you have anything to contribute. I have repeatedly asked in certain circles that people not engage in that, and in once instance, was banned, and in another, was told I was being willfully ignorant of "God's greater glory." I don't accept either claim, as they're simply trying to trivialize the real questions I have. It's a diminution of who I am as a man.

Yes, there is an end to it, Kathy. It comes when we die.

All of this is one of the major reasons I object to things like the obsession with The Last Days, or Intelligent Design. It's not about furthering the discussion; it's about stifling inquiry, silencing debate, and muzzling opposition. It's about reducing knowledge, rather than expanding it, and it does so under one of the most hateful guises ever: If you go too far, you will not be loved, by our god, by your fellow man. We must SAVE OURSELVES by staying stupid, even as history and evidence show that we are not saved by being ignorant neanderthals, but by learning, expanding our knowledge, and moving forward. Our reward is an unproven afterlife which is available to us at the caprice of a deity who may, or may not, choose to honor his word, based upon whether or not we've made sufficient obeisances, or even appropriate ones. (Hence the reason Doubting Stephen calls your god a "psychotic sky-fairy," and believe me, a god who would give someone cancer as a "blessing" deserves the title.)

All of this is even more offensive in that it ignores the proven benefits of debate, discussion, inquiry, challenge, experimentation, rationality. It degrades the Scientific Method, even as people like yourself reap monumental rewards, to include a longer life, better health, improved safety, greater communication, expanding literacy.

You come here and declare the greater benefits of chasing a god whose existence is not only unproven, but the bulk of whose current followers demonstrate contempt for not only their fellow man, but for the very deity they claim to honor. You preach, and you ignore repeated evidence that what you are preaching has been proven false at its worst, or remains unproven at its best. People have shown you, time and again, that what you say is hateful and cruel, and you ignore this. Most folks would at least have shut up and tried to repair the monumental damage their words have done. You have tried to justify your words, trying to claim the Love of Christ, even as your words have shown the exact opposite.

I'll phrase this as clearly as I can: I do not believe you. You cannot be believed.

So you have helped some folks for six weeks? That's nice. I would like to think that most churches would have food closets, clean clothes for those in need, and a congregation willing to help shelter those who are homeless. That ought to be the rule, not the exception, particularly if you're claiming faith in Christ, at least according to the author of the Book of James. When you consider the number of hospitals which bear the names of recognized denominations, you have to wonder what went wrong that now churches spend more money on sanctuaries than making sure the people in the communities they serve have decent, affordable health care. (Funny. As a believer, I wanted to help others as that book declared, but I was censured by congregations because I did so. Now, I'm not a believer, and I still try to help people, but instead of being told I'm a fool, I have fellow atheists telling me they respect me. Who serves, Kathy?)

See, this is the real problem: You words, and the words of those you claim you are allied with, do not match your actions. You're no different than the station manager I used to work for in Christian radio who said he had every right to short my paycheck. You're no different than the pastor who said it was okay to allow someone to gossip about my wife, because he tithed more than we did. You're no different than the pastor who made passes at my wife, (which, by the way, she rebuffed because she was married to me, and he was a married man himself), because his god would forgive his "indiscretion." You're no different than the people who snubbed us because we weren't as "spiritually hip" as they were. And as you declare Christ's imminent return, and urge us to forget inquiry and discussion, you are no different than the ministers who have for years tried to warp the facts to fit their bizarre conclusions, even to the point of fraud and deception, (thank you, "Dr." Kent Hovind.)

I'm sure that in the end, Jesus will find you waiting for him, arms outstretched, declaring how much you love him, and how you've been waiting patiently for him. I'm sure you'll have plenty of tales of the prayers you've prayed, and the songs you've sung. But just for your information, should Jesus return, the rest of us on this board will be found trying to find cures for disease, feeding the hungry, trying to encourage prisoners to educate themselves, building homes for the homeless, and looking for ways to improve the lot of our fellow man. We will follow the lead of people like Robert Lancaster, Phil Plait, Hal Bidlack, and, yes, James Randi, and we will get involved in the broader world, and try to work towards things like equality, courage, knowledge, honor, integrity, liberty, and truth. Because history, and your own book, have both shown that if you want that kind of thing, you have to get off your ass and work for them.
 
Roadtoad said:
Okay, once we get past the lame excuses, maybe we can accomplish something. But until then, let me leave you with this for you consideration...

What you are describing as an "intellectual game," Kathy, is anything but. This is actually pretty serious business, and I find it galling that folks like you ignore the reality that Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics take such things as Eternity far more seriously than you do, yourself. It is precisely because there is the understanding for us that once life ends, that's it, end of story. What impact we have must be made while we live; we don't get a second chance, nor do we get "forgiven" for all our errors, with all the ill effects of those destructive acts wiped away by some invisible hand.

This "intellectual game" is not about confusing the faithful, or ignoring the realities of life. Most of us would like for there to be a finality to these discussions, even as we realize there probably won't be. The issues involved are far beyond ourselves, even as we struggle to put words to concepts that exceed human thought. We want to understand these things, these realities, and have come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion. Even if we were to accept your ideals regarding a god, the essence remains: we are human, and it is our desire to understand, and to understand better.

This is at the root of science, as well as philosophy. In the 50's, it was believed the smallest object was the molecule. Today, we're examining the subatomic, and perhaps even smaller than that. (I was astonished to learn we'd managed to split neutrons back in the '80's. Can we do better than that?) It comes down to asking how far we can go.

And while there are those who would tell us we have no "right" to inquire further, (such as Pope John Paul II and Jerry Falwell), the reality is that when it comes to the mind, the most ethical, the most moral thing we can do is to learn and understand. There is no "Right" or "Wrong" here, just Knowledge and Ignorance.

Now, I'm sorry that you find this so frustrating, but here's a little tip for you: Intelligent people will ask questions, not because we groove on the argument, but because it is through the argument that we discover the facts, and ultimately have a greater grasp of the realities that are well beyond ourselves. It's part of what makes us human, in case you hadn't realized, and part of the problem I have with the analogy of man having a "god shaped hole" in his heart is that it ignores the fact that sometimes, the god in question is just too damned small.

In other words, Kathy, I'm rejecting pat answers to serious questions. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I need serious answers, not just "It was good enough for XXXX, so it ought to be good enough for you." That's an act of contempt and intellectual laziness, it is ultimately degrading to the beliefs you aspire to, and to those who have gone before.

For you consideration, I would suggest you read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship, (a great read regardless of what you believe.) The reality is that you are presenting to us the very same cheap discipleship which Bonhoeffer abhorred, preached against, and which ultimately took his life. When he was being led to be hanged, his final words were said to be, "This is the end; for me, the beginning of life."

You may interpret Bonhoeffer's words as you choose, but for someone like me, I look at what the man did in his years on this Earth, and realize that his belief inspired him to go well beyond himself, and to challenge one of the most evil regimes ever to exist. He could not have accomplished this following the same kind of cheap grace you seem to preach here, nor the kind of easy believism which you seem to think we need. Sorry, there's a higher standard at work in this, and the easy way out is not going to cut it. I may no longer accept Bonhoeffer's beliefs, but I still uphold and respect what he represented. It cost him everything, and it was tried in the fire and shown to be good. Whether or not you like it is immaterial; because of this man's actions, lives were saved. Perhaps not as many as could be, but still, the effort was made to bring down the genuine evil he saw, even as others capitulated.

You have ignored the basic reality about the Gospel you preach, that it is supposed to be the difference between Life and Death. As you bleat to people like Ducky that Jesus gave them cancer so they would love God, you ignore the realities behind the disease you declare a tool of the divine. Even worse, you degrade the remarkable courage of this man, and those who have fought it in the past. You degrade people with this, and ultimately deny us the very humanity that you claim you want to save. Who's playing intellectual games, Kathy?

When you perpetuate silly cliches, absurd analogies, and childish head games, you deny that you have anything to contribute. I have repeatedly asked in certain circles that people not engage in that, and in once instance, was banned, and in another, was told I was being willfully ignorant of "God's greater glory." I don't accept either claim, as they're simply trying to trivialize the real questions I have. It's a diminution of who I am as a man.

Yes, there is an end to it, Kathy. It comes when we die.

All of this is one of the major reasons I object to things like the obsession with The Last Days, or Intelligent Design. It's not about furthering the discussion; it's about stifling inquiry, silencing debate, and muzzling opposition. It's about reducing knowledge, rather than expanding it, and it does so under one of the most hateful guises ever: If you go too far, you will not be loved, by our god, by your fellow man. We must SAVE OURSELVES by staying stupid, even as history and evidence show that we are not saved by being ignorant neanderthals, but by learning, expanding our knowledge, and moving forward. Our reward is an unproven afterlife which is available to us at the caprice of a deity who may, or may not, choose to honor his word, based upon whether or not we've made sufficient obeisances, or even appropriate ones. (Hence the reason Doubting Stephen calls your god a "psychotic sky-fairy," and believe me, a god who would give someone cancer as a "blessing" deserves the title.)

All of this is even more offensive in that it ignores the proven benefits of debate, discussion, inquiry, challenge, experimentation, rationality. It degrades the Scientific Method, even as people like yourself reap monumental rewards, to include a longer life, better health, improved safety, greater communication, expanding literacy.

You come here and declare the greater benefits of chasing a god whose existence is not only unproven, but the bulk of whose current followers demonstrate contempt for not only their fellow man, but for the very deity they claim to honor. You preach, and you ignore repeated evidence that what you are preaching has been proven false at its worst, or remains unproven at its best. People have shown you, time and again, that what you say is hateful and cruel, and you ignore this. Most folks would at least have shut up and tried to repair the monumental damage their words have done. You have tried to justify your words, trying to claim the Love of Christ, even as your words have shown the exact opposite.

I'll phrase this as clearly as I can: I do not believe you. You cannot be believed.

So you have helped some folks for six weeks? That's nice. I would like to think that most churches would have food closets, clean clothes for those in need, and a congregation willing to help shelter those who are homeless. That ought to be the rule, not the exception, particularly if you're claiming faith in Christ, at least according to the author of the Book of James. When you consider the number of hospitals which bear the names of recognized denominations, you have to wonder what went wrong that now churches spend more money on sanctuaries than making sure the people in the communities they serve have decent, affordable health care. (Funny. As a believer, I wanted to help others as that book declared, but I was censured by congregations because I did so. Now, I'm not a believer, and I still try to help people, but instead of being told I'm a fool, I have fellow atheists telling me they respect me. Who serves, Kathy?)

See, this is the real problem: You words, and the words of those you claim you are allied with, do not match your actions. You're no different than the station manager I used to work for in Christian radio who said he had every right to short my paycheck. You're no different than the pastor who said it was okay to allow someone to gossip about my wife, because he tithed more than we did. You're no different than the pastor who made passes at my wife, (which, by the way, she rebuffed because she was married to me, and he was a married man himself), because his god would forgive his "indiscretion." You're no different than the people who snubbed us because we weren't as "spiritually hip" as they were. And as you declare Christ's imminent return, and urge us to forget inquiry and discussion, you are no different than the ministers who have for years tried to warp the facts to fit their bizarre conclusions, even to the point of fraud and deception, (thank you, "Dr." Kent Hovind.)

I'm sure that in the end, Jesus will find you waiting for him, arms outstretched, declaring how much you love him, and how you've been waiting patiently for him. I'm sure you'll have plenty of tales of the prayers you've prayed, and the songs you've sung. But just for your information, should Jesus return, the rest of us on this board will be found trying to find cures for disease, feeding the hungry, trying to encourage prisoners to educate themselves, building homes for the homeless, and looking for ways to improve the lot of our fellow man. We will follow the lead of people like Robert Lancaster, Phil Plait, Hal Bidlack, and, yes, James Randi, and we will get involved in the broader world, and try to work towards things like equality, courage, knowledge, honor, integrity, liberty, and truth. Because history, and your own book, have both shown that if you want that kind of thing, you have to get off your ass and work for them.
Click to expand...
I am encouraqed that you say many atheists and aganostics take eternity seriously, but the problem is we cannot get there just with our head, we must have our hearts involved in the discovery process so I hope many intellects will at least consider that, For it's to the heart God speaks to man. What good is knowledge without love and understanding? The Holy Spirit is the one who can help us with this insight.

And I know of Bonhoeffer's book but I do not think I have it or I haven't read it yet. I am active in supporting the Voice of the Martyrs Ministry so I will try to get the book from them and read it. I will check it out and take it to heart. All I know is faith is something we must share with others if we have it. I still believe everyone needs faith, hope, and love. Can we see those things no, but I do know they are a real important part of our lives.

As for getting more active in ministry I am, but not so much on a physical level as I do have some big health limitations. I will try to do what I can to help others and do some good with my life while I am alive. And I agree with you our faith and love must be more than mere words but in deed and action. What does scripture say, "Faith without works is dead?" But I would hope more realize our faith is God's gift of grace to us, and it's by this alone we are saved. Our works do not save us even though there are many good people helping others in this world. Blessings to you, Kathy
 
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Jackalgirl said:
The point of this thread, though, is to review the book and comment it on specifically. KK, if you've gotten the threads mixed up, this is the one in which you and Hok trade things to read, then comment on them.

Could you (re)post your commentary about Ehrman's book here, please?
Click to expand...

I have listened to the audio book once all the way through and got through half a second time. I just do not have a hard copy to sit down and highlight to make tons of comments. I may need to get a hard copy but I honestly just get upset with the authors negative outlook on God throughout it. He doesn't account for all are sinners and that is a huge issue as God is just. People just don't like to agree with God sometimes even though he says all of us after the fall are deserving of hell because of sin. The reason for our suffering in this world is because of sin, that's it. Death is not something anyone looks forward to but lets face the facts it's a reality.
 
kurious_kathy said:
The Holy Spirit is the one who can help us with this insight.
Click to expand...

Very well said, Sister in Blood. I'd like to invite you to Landover Baptist Church for one of Brother Barry's fantastic sermons.

You would get along most famously with Betty Boyd.

Glory!
 
kurious_kathy said:
I have listened to the audio book once all the way through and got through half a second time. I just do not have a hard copy to sit down and highlight to make tons of comments. I may need to get a hard copy but I honestly just get upset with the authors negative outlook on God throughout it. He doesn't account for all are sinners and that is a huge issue as God is just. People just don't like to agree with God sometimes even though he says all of us after the fall are deserving of hell because of sin. The reason for our suffering in this world is because of sin, that's it. Death is not something anyone looks forward to but lets face the facts it's a reality.
Click to expand...


You do realize that Ehrman once believed as you do, don't you?

His belief, his faith, his absolute love and desire for his cherished god is what drove him to learn all he could about it, and his Christianity.

At the end of it, he had no choice but to admit that the Bible contained numerous, egregious, irreconcilable errors. That the church he believed for so long to be "true" (unlike all the other "False" religions)was in reality no more true than any of the others.

I suggest that you stop fretting over Erhman's views on faith, and listen instead to his reasoning behind it.

People believe differently than you. Get over it. As obvious as God's truth is to you from inside your bubble, people on the outside see the same thing you see in all the other religions that you criticize.

Instead of repeating comforting, mindless mantras, try listening to what others say. You might learn something.
And learning something will not necessarily be the end of your faith.

My mother is nearing completion of (I think) a Master's in Divinity. She already has a couple degrees in various aspects of theology.
She is very smart, very articulate, and very knowledgeable of the history and development of the Christian church and Bible. She readily acknowledges that the gospels were not written by witnesses, that much has been added, that there are factual errors and contradictions galore, and that the much-vaunted "miracles" and "fulfilled prophecies" never happened.

But she's still a Christian.

She fully understands my atheism, and knows that I lost my belief not out or rash anger or knee-jerk reactions, but out of a calm, logical analysis.

But she's still a Christian.

For all her education and learning, despite all the things that are wrong in the Bible and the churches, her faith remains solid.

Her faith is strong enough to continue, despite her knowledge of the very human origins of Christianity. Actually, I think she's closer to a deist who views Jesus as a great teacher. Nevertheless, she hasn't lost he faith. And unlike most fundamentalists, reality does not threaten her beliefs. It complements them.

How strong is your faith, Kathy?

Do yourself a favour, and listen to what Ehrman says. If you can, get a copy of his book "Misquoting Jesus" and read that too.

And don't fret over the fact that some things you hold dear will be shown to be wrong. And don't fret over the fact that some people don't see your religion as being obviously true, as inconceivable as the idea might now seem to you.

If your faith is dependent on everything in the Bible being true, than your faith is very weak indeed.
 
kurious_kathy said:
I am encouraqed that you say many atheists and aganostics take eternity seriously, but the problem is we cannot get there just with our head, we must have our hearts involved in the discovery process so I hope many intellects will at least consider that.
Click to expand...
What makes you think that our hearts aren't involved?
 
kurious_kathy said:
What good is knowledge without love and understanding? The Holy Spirit is the one who can help us with this insight.
Click to expand...

You speak of love and understanding? You are sick.

Your love and compassion would have us praising your psychopathic deity for cancer and denying mental illness. If you think that your words have expressed ANY love and compassion I would suggest you get a dictionary and LEARN.
 
My heart is definitely engaged in this issue. It affects my whole life, my relationship with my family and my friends. You're wrong to say that this is just some kind of intellectual game, for me at least.
 
kurious_kathy said:
He doesn't account for all are sinners and that is a huge issue as God is just.
Click to expand...
Well, taht's an unsupported assertion, and one that contradicts the bible. Prove that everyone is a sinner and god is just.

kurious_kathy said:
People just don't like to agree with God sometimes even though he says all of us after the fall are deserving of hell because of sin.
Click to expand...
And here you go!
My 6 month old, beautiful daughter deserves hell because of sin? What sin? that she poops her pants? That she loves to put everything in her mouth?

If this is god's policy, then he ISN'T just. He's just a Mafia goon.

kurious_kathy said:
The reason for our suffering in this world is because of sin, that's it.
Click to expand...
more unsupported nonsense.

Can you refute any of Ehrman's points individually. Much like Hok and others have refuted the points of your source. If you can't, doesn't that tell you something?
 
Kathy,

Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your mind, not just the heart and the soul.
 
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