Chávez: America Bad, Russia Good.

[DC]

And capitalism has provided more opportunity, more medical advances, more medicine, more middle class citizens and generally more freedom than any other system.

And no other system is free of greed and human fallibility.

I'm not against hybrid socialism and capitalistic systems but I would never want to live in a world without capitalism. Which is why China has allowed capitalism to grow and why Russia has allowed private individuals to own and operate businesses.

I don't get why it's so hard for people to understand such a simple concept. Millions died under communism because there was no incentive to innovate and find solutions to the problems people need on the scale that capitalism can.

Now America is going hat in hand to China because of China's capitalism. China isn't simply giving wheat to Americans the way Americans gave wheat to Russia. China is buying our financial instruments.

You gotta love that. A communist nation investing in the icon of capitalism because of their own capitalism. And yes, the irony of China wondering if they aren't overexposed in America isn't lost on me. And skip the strawman, America was never based on the concept that there would never be hard times. Only that we would have more good times than bad. Given our record that is not arguable. America is a nation of fat poor people. Explain that one? Poor people in third world nations are not fat.

Now, this isn't to say we can't do better. This isn't to say that an increase in socialism couldn't help. But note that there are some socialist nations that are having problems also.

look Capitalism killed also millions.

 

[DC]

?

Capitalism provides citizens the luxury of caring about human rights which is why I can call my political leaders idiots, travel around the country without papers, join private clubs, have a right to due process, have the right not to remain silent if arrested, have a right against illegal search and seizure, etc., etc.

It always amazes me that you simply don't care about the facts.

Oh, and the OP? Care to comment?

Capitalism enabled companys as Nestle to act how they act now.
look how much they care about human rights.... or fair trade etc...

many are not happy in capitalism. and many many have died.

 

[DC]

and again,

i am not in favor of a russian base in Venezuela.
But the Venezuelan people have to choose that themselfe.
If they dont like it they can start a referendum. Thats what i would do as a Venezuelan.

ok now?

 

[DC]

its always pointed out how much died in Communism. but never ever do you people talk about the millions died do to capitalism.

just take a look how the wealth is spread. inside our countrys the gap bewtween poor and rich is big. But compare that to the world. compare it to the sweatshop countrys.
the countrys where those oh so humnan rights loving companys massproduce the crap they sell us with huge profits and mediacampaigns...

It leads us into a form of feudalism.

 

[DC]

its strange. in the private capitalist media you will hardly find a documentation about the evil things companys like Nestle GAP etc do. You will see 100's of commercials from them.
But to have an deeper look at the things happening around our human rights caring capitalist companys, you have to switch to the public channels, like Swiss TV, Arte, or German public TV.
On the private TV such things are not talked about....

so much for your human rights caring capitalism....
Capitalism gives a **** about human rights. it only cares about profit. and even there they act stupid. Always trying to reduce workers and do everything automatic and then when those people lost they work and income they wonder why people have not enough money to buy their crap and they kick another bunch of people and increase the marketing budget....

 

[DC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFxYyXGMfZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d-hTyo1eAg

 

[RandFan]

look Capitalism killed also millions.

Isn't it nice that we can simply declare something as true and it is?

• Stalins Purges.
• Mao's cultural revolution and great leap forward.
• Pol Pot's killing fields.
• Cinese and Soviet Gulags

And the Capitalism analogs?

 

[RandFan]

Capitalism enabled company's as Nestle to act how they act now.
look how much they care about human rights.... or fair trade etc...

many are not happy in capitalism. and many many have died.

A.) You only assert that many have died. Your proof? B.) You've not shown that an alternate system has ever done better. C.) It's demonstrable that Capitalism has produced modern medicine, advancements in therapy and medical care, advancements in medical equipment, technology for improving lives, cleaning water, providing sanitation, communication, transportation, etc., etc., etc.

The analogs for non capitalistic systems?

You have a way of only seeing the worst in capitalism but it's myopic view and the problems extend beyond capitalism. They are in large part due to the humans. No system will solve all of the problems but if I had a choice between Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot or Bush I'd take Bush every time. The crimes and attrocities, though serious, paled in comparison to the 10's of millions murdered, starved, oppressed, imprisioned.

And the OP?

 

[funk de fino]

oh kiddy go play with someone else...

Insults and running away, reverted to type.

 

[RandFan]

and again,

i am not in favor of a russian base in Venezuela.
But the Venezuelan people have to choose that themselfe.
If they dont like it they can start a referendum. Thats what i would do as a Venezuelan.

ok now?

That's not the point.

The point is about the hypocrisy of the Chavez's rhetoric and the idea that America is held out to be the boogeyman while Chavez makes kissy face with the Russians.

And FTR, I think that politically it might be a good move. I just want to make clear the contrast between Russia and America.

 

[RandFan]

its always pointed out how much died in Communism. but never ever do you people talk about the millions died do to capitalism.

Well, like I said, it's only fair for you to provide us with the analogs of the Gulags, the purges, the Berlin wall with its machine guns that fired automaticaly at anyone who dare cross them.

just take a look how the wealth is spread. inside our countrys the gap bewtween poor and rich is big. But compare that to the world. compare it to the sweatshop countrys.
the countrys where those oh so humnan rights loving companys massproduce the crap they sell us with huge profits and mediacampaigns...

I'm more than willing to accept criticism where it is due. But not all of those problems can be laid at the feet of America.

 

[RandFan]

its strange. in the private capitalist media you will hardly find a documentation about the evil things companys like Nestle GAP etc do. You will see 100's of commercials from them.
But to have an deeper look at the things happening around our human rights caring capitalist companys, you have to switch to the public channels, like Swiss TV, Arte, or German public TV.
On the private TV such things are not talked about....

so much for your human rights caring capitalism....
Capitalism gives a **** about human rights. it only cares about profit. and even there they act stupid. Always trying to reduce workers and do everything automatic and then when those people lost they work and income they wonder why people have not enough money to buy their crap and they kick another bunch of people and increase the marketing budget....

I'm sorry but there's not much to respond to. You've not rebuted my argument. In America there are human rights in large part BECAUSE of capitalism. I'll add that it is also, in large part, due to democracy.

Capitalism is simply an economic system. Run properly it's an engine of prosperity and problem solving which is why China and Russia have wised up and are adopting it.

NOW: Let me hasten to add that their brand of capitalism is quite different with much more regulation and control and perhaps they might in the long run end up with a better social/capitalistic system. I don't know. There are Scandinavian countrys with a healty mix of Democracy, Socialism and Capitalism that are doing VERY, VERY WELL. I'm not opposed to that.

Hey, if India and China get their act together either could buy America for pennies on the dollar.

Rather than making capitalism a punching bag why don't you focus on the good of these other countries and perhaps point out that America's brand of capitalism is not as good as others.

I might agree with you.

 

[DC]

I will make a list about "Capitalism kills"
will include several bloddy toplings of democratic elected governments, wars.
Companys stealing Resources, companys using childlabor, Company selling HIV infected blood etc etc.
will take a while, but for you i will make a little list tonight.

and its not only the USA. also alot lot other companys/countrys. Including swiss banks and companys.

ETA: I dont have that false proudness of my country. I can see the huge bad things in Capitalism, even thou i am on the profiting side of the system. You must be moraly corrupt to not see its flaws and crimes.

 

[DC]

Insults and running away, reverted to type.

oh cmon kiddy, you just want to play semantic games. go play with someone else you hypocrit.

How many many times do you call truthers liars? just because they base they belive on false information. you dont care if they knew or not, you call them liars.

But when a governments is basing its belive on false info and 1000's of people die, you jump to their defence, hey it was not fals, it was just wrong...

spare me that crap.
your back to my ignore list kid.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

I think the problem with the whole debate about capitalism vs. socialism is that we far too often look at them from an abstract and ideological point of view. If we consider Scandinavia as a prime example of hybrid systems, we must take into account that they are not necessary 'designed' that way; they have evolved into such from pragmatic concerns. Heck, even Finland had a civil war break out with conflicting ideologies on each side. Fortunately, insanity had to give way for a more pragmatic approach on how to organize the country. In a sense, people had to realize that a young small nation with limited resources and people had to somehow accommodate a unitary sense if identity or simply crumble into a back yard for some larger power. Hence, the basis for a hybrid system as a consequence was a natural outgrowth.

I think much of the problems in Latin America is due to forces trying to export and implement either ideology in their "purest" forms. Neither work. Like Randfand has alluded to, the socialist revolutions didn't end up into utopias. But on the same token, exporting capitalism, or in fact, demanding capitalist reforms, didn't end up too well either.

People haven't forgotten that the demands of privatization from the World Bank or I.M.F. in exchange for loans was a fiasco. It's what happens when governments let ideologues like the Chicago boys run amok and experiment. What they did was to try to export a form of capitalism that U.S. citizens probably would have rioted against themselves. For example, I'm thinking about Bechtel and the privatization of water in Bolivia (including rainwater; where people had to obtain a permit in order to collect it) which was more or less forced upon them by the World Bank. The New Yorker ran a good story about it here: "Leasing the Rain"

Now it appears that the pendulum is yet again swinging in the other direction. But with each swing the movement is a bit lesser. The rhetorics might be the same – see Chavez – but the acts will be more pragmatic. Thus we won't see ideologically driven revolutions like in the past, nor will we probably see hard-core capitalist ideologues trying to infest whole nations either. It is slowly getting into balance, hopefully. An outgrowth of the balancing act is that the U.S. has less to say about affairs of others.

 

[funk de fino]

oh cmon kiddy, you just want to play semantic games. go play with someone else you hypocrit.

How many many times do you call truthers liars? just because they base they belive on false information. you dont care if they knew or not, you call them liars.

But when a governments is basing its belive on false info and 1000's of people die, you jump to their defence, hey it was not fals, it was just wrong...

spare me that crap.
your back to my ignore list kid.

Ha ha, I told you he would get upset. And also being shown to be wrong again. He makes a claim, cany back it up and has to run from it and use his two wrongs make a right arguments after calling me names.

I am not defending anyone I am asking you to back up your claim about false info and not just incorrect. You're not telling a porkie there are you? You seem to be obsessed by truthers. I will call them liars if I know they know something and they still lie about it.

I havent even had a dig at your father figure Hugo yet. Putting me on ignore is childish and admitting defeat.

 

[JihadJane]

And that Russia is a thinly veiled dictatorship does not give you qualms about them taking up the Baton of world leadership?
This thread just confirms what I have thought for quite a while: That all the eternal talk on the far left about "Human Rights" and "freedom " is just a bunch of BS. They don't give a damn about either. They just want total power to create their little Utopia (with them in charge, of course) and crush anybody who does not agree with it. Indivudal Liberty does not have a large place in their universe.

It is easy to have your thoughts confirmed when the only thoughts you see are the ones you have put in people's heads yourself!

Morality is irrelevant to major world powers. That's why they feel free to kill whoever threatens their "interests".

 

[DC]

Ha ha, I told you he would get upset. And also being shown to be wrong again. He makes a claim, cany back it up and has to run from it and use his two wrongs make a right arguments after calling me names.

I am not defending anyone I am asking you to back up your claim about false info and not just incorrect. You're not telling a porkie there are you? You seem to be obsessed by truthers. I will call them liars if I know they know something and they still lie about it.

I havent even had a dig at your father figure Hugo yet. Putting me on ignore is childish and admitting defeat.

lol you are such a little kiddy.

i get angry about your games. nothing else.

i used the word "Falsch" which translates to several words, also "false" and "wrong"
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&la...both&pinyin=diacritic&search=falsch&relink=on

And the Info was Falsch, no mather if they lied or not.

i do belive they lied. and sexied up the stuff they had.
they used the german intel, and the Germans warned that the source is not good and not trustworthy, they didnt care. just like truthers.

so you call truthers liars, so i call Buch/Cheney/Blair liars.

happy now?

if you want to continue your game, make a topic about it you hypocrit. Du arroganter Klugscheisser.

 

[funk de fino]

lol you are such a little kiddy.

i get angry about your games. nothing else.

i used the word "Falsch" which translates to several words, also "false" and "wrong"
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&la...both&pinyin=diacritic&search=falsch&relink=on

I was not playing games, I wanted to clarify if you meant false as in lies or just wrong.

And the Info was Falsch, no mather if they lied or not.

i do belive they lied. and sexied up the stuff they had.
they used the german intel, and the Germans warned that the source is not good and not trustworthy, they didnt care. just like truthers.

So you do think it was lies? And all those countries were fooled by the lies?

(use sexed and not sexied)

so you call truthers liars, so i call Buch/Cheney/Blair liars.

If they lie. Show me a Bush?Cheney?Blair lie about anything.

happy now?

if you want to continue your game, make a topic about it you hypocrit.

I'm in a good mood as I am nearing the time to get home to my country. However you spoil it sometimes when you call me names for no reason.

 

[DC]

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for civility