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An interesting God perspective

CasaRojo

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Jun 27, 2008
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The following is a response to a letter from someone who asked Bishop John Shelby Spong who he prayed to.:

I suppose that it is almost universal for human beings, who have the ability to embrace the vastness of the universe and to ask questions about life's meaning, to yearn for a protective, supernatural heavenly parent figure, who watches over us and is the source of that meaning. That sense probably comes from our childhoods when parents seemed invincible and able to fix anything or to manage any crisis.
The problem with that yearning for God to play that role as you point out is twofold. First, it does not work. Tsunamis do roll over the world with no sense of the trauma it inflicts on its victims and with no one protecting even little children. People die in warfare despite the fervent prayers of both the military personnel and their parents. Second, this yearning keeps us in a delusional state of perpetual childhood where we can pretend that we do not have to take care of ourselves. Delusions can be pleasant but they are not life giving.
The interesting issue you raise is that you assume that if there is no supernatural parent figure deity in the sky then there is no reason to pray and no purpose in life. If there is no life after death, the purpose for God disappears. In these ideas you are suggesting that if your definition of God is not true, there is no God!
Let me seek to unravel some of that by quoting a Greek philosopher, Xenophanes, who said, "If horses had gods, they would look like horses." Have you taken time to examine how much your image of God looks like a very big, all powerful human being? I doubt if it will ever be otherwise for human beings cannot think outside their human experience. A horse cannot ever know what it means to be human. A human being cannot ever know what it means to be God. Yet human beings constantly tell other human beings who God is and how God acts. Therefore, step number one is to admit that you do not know.
That does not mean that horses cannot experience human beings in their lives or that human beings cannot experience that which we call God in our lives. It does mean that the desire to be deluded does give rise to delusion. But is the human brain the ultimate reality? Or is there a sense of otherness? Of transcendence? Of the fullness of life? Of the power of love? Of the Ground of Being? Can consciousness be expanded? Boundaries broken? Humanity know transformation? Is this a God moment? Are these the imprints of the holy 'other' coming into our limited understanding?
We have no God language so words become terribly inept in making sense out of this experience. That is why almost every religious pilgrimage winds up in mysticism. Prayer is the conscious attempt to enter the transcendent moment. It is not an adult letter addressed to a divine Santa Claus.
That is what I mean by prayer. Does it work? That is not for me to say. Does love surround those for whom you are concerned? Does love assist healing? Expand life? Is love the presence of God within us loosed by one to surround another? Do plants grow better if we talk to them? Is the universe a living, throbbing, mystical God-infused place? Is God a being among many or the ground of all that is? Was Jesus perceived as an incarnation of an external supernatural God or was he so whole, so at one, that people saw the source of life and love and, therefore, God flowing through him?
Those are the questions I would raise. God is real to me but not definable, only "experiencible." However, that is what gives every moment of life both its depth and its ultimate meaning. Life is a tremendous and wonderful adventure that touches eternity time after time. The idea that something you call meaningless now would become meaningful by being extended beyond death is a strange idea to me. I believe in life after death because I touch eternity and meaning now. That is enough for me.
-- John Shelby Spong
 
I believe that there is a diamond buried in my back yard. It's not accessible as yet but someday natural forces will reveal it to me. The diamond gives me hope for the future. The diamond belongs to me and therefore it gives meaning and purpose to my life. The diamond has special properties and it can bring me good luck. It's mysterious so it doesn't always work to bring me good luck. As it turns out the diamond ensures that good and bad events happen in my life as often as those who don't have diamonds in their back yards. I believe that the diamond is there because my father told me about the diamond and because ancient nomadic people would pass along oral stories and traditions of mysterious diamonds buried in back yards revealed to the people by the diamonds. One day someone wrote down those stories and traditions and so the diamonds no longer reveal their secrets to people.
 
The only question that I would ask him is why continue and use the word "god".

I'd like to hear Spong's response to that question. I suspect that he's comfortable in his position as bishop in the Episcopal church for one. And maybe his POV is more pantheistic. Seems like that to me.

I am a fan of Sam Harris but have only read The End Of Faith. Great link! Thanks!
 
I'd like to hear Spong's response to that question. I suspect that he's comfortable in his position as bishop in the Episcopal church for one. And maybe his POV is more pantheistic. Seems like that to me.

I am a fan of Sam Harris but have only read The End Of Faith. Great link! Thanks!

Look through his website.
 
Pretty cool. One question would be why does he still use the word "God"?

Would he mind using "Satan" instead?

That does not mean that horses cannot experience human beings in their lives or that human beings cannot experience that which we call Satan in our lives. It does mean that the desire to be deluded does give rise to delusion. But is the human brain the ultimate reality? Or is there a sense of otherness? Of transcendence? Of the fullness of life? Of the power of love? Of the Ground of Being? Can consciousness be expanded? Boundaries broken? Humanity know transformation? Is this a Satan moment? Are these the imprints of the holy 'other' coming into our limited understanding?
We have no Satan language so words become terribly inept in making sense out of this experience. That is why almost every religious pilgrimage winds up in mysticism. Prayer is the conscious attempt to enter the transcendent moment. It is not an adult letter addressed to a divine Santa Claus.
 
I believe that there is a diamond buried in my back yard. It's not accessible as yet but someday natural forces will reveal it to me. The diamond gives me hope for the future. The diamond belongs to me and therefore it gives meaning and purpose to my life. The diamond has special properties and it can bring me good luck. It's mysterious so it doesn't always work to bring me good luck. As it turns out the diamond ensures that good and bad events happen in my life as often as those who don't have diamonds in their back yards. I believe that the diamond is there because my father told me about the diamond and because ancient nomadic people would pass along oral stories and traditions of mysterious diamonds buried in back yards revealed to the people by the diamonds. One day someone wrote down those stories and traditions and so the diamonds no longer reveal their secrets to people.

I get it.

I find Spong's perspective interesting especially for people that are questioning their faith.
 
I find Spong's perspective interesting especially for people that are questioning their faith.
Agreed. I just wanted to add a slant to the perspective. Having been a true blue believer I am capable of seeing both perspectives and I'm trying to get others to step aside and see how absurd such ideas are. Just because a belief exists many people share the belief doesn't mean that it is a reasonable belief. How do you get people to see that? If I truly believe in the diamond how can I possibly question it? What could possibly disabuse me of the notion?

It seems simple but it is an amazingly complex and difficult prospect. My de-conversion took years and countless hours of thought, introspection and a willingness to accept the truth. Truth I often did not want to accept.

If you believe that the moon doesn't exist there is no evidence that will convince you otherwise unless you are willing to accept the evidence.
 
Agreed. I just wanted to add a slant to the perspective. Having been a true blue believer I am capable of seeing both perspectives and I'm trying to get others to step aside and see how absurd such ideas are. Just because a belief exists many people share the belief doesn't mean that it is a reasonable belief. How do you get people to see that? If I truly believe in the diamond how can I possibly question it? What could possibly disabuse me of the notion?

It seems simple but it is an amazingly complex and difficult prospect. My de-conversion took years and countless hours of thought, introspection and a willingness to accept the truth. Truth I often did not want to accept.

If you believe that the moon doesn't exist there is no evidence that will convince you otherwise unless you are willing to accept the evidence.

I was a true believer as well until about age 16. I'm 53 now.

I don't think you get people to see anything. I'm happy if someone understands how and why I arrived at the point I am now and respects it. And "true believers" cannot do that I've found.
 
I don't think you get people to see anything.
With apologies I think you are misusing my words. I don't think I would have become an atheist if it weren't for the influence of others. Did they "get me to see" a different perspective? I don't have a problem saying yes but I do in fact understand your hyper-technical point. It's just that I think it is at best pedantic and at worse silly and trite. We can influence others and it is that influence that motivates me to share with others what others have shared with me. The question becomes how best to influence (get them to see). If you have an objection with my methods then I'm open to discussion. If you are only interested in semantics then I'm rather underwhelmed.
 
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With apologies I think you are misusing my words. I don't think I would have become an atheist if it weren't for the influence of others. Did they "get me to see" a different perspective? I don't have a problem saying yes but I do in fact understand your hyper-technical point. It's just that I think it is at best pedantic and at worse silly and trite. We can influence others and it is that influence that motivates me to share with others what others have shared with me. The question becomes how best to influence (get them to see). If you have an objection with my methods then I'm open to discussion. If you are only interested in semantics then I'm rather underwhelmed.

Perhaps I took your question a bit out of context but I related it to specific personal experiences that I found frustrating i.e. trying to explain to a Christian that the bible is not necessarily historical fact because it or it's representatives claim that it's own prophecies were fulfilled.
I was certainly not looking to argue semantics as I see enough of that goes on around here.

"The question becomes how best to influence (get them to see)."

For true believers, I do not know. I'm pretty much trying to stay away from that group these days. I worked in a church for five years and was a non theist at the time.
 
Perhaps I took your question a bit out of context but I related it to specific personal experiences that I found frustrating i.e. trying to explain to a Christian that the bible is not necessarily historical fact because it or it's representatives claim that it's own prophecies were fulfilled.
I was certainly not looking to argue semantics as I see enough of that goes on around here.

"The question becomes how best to influence (get them to see)."

For true believers, I do not know. I'm pretty much trying to stay away from that group these days. I worked in a church for five years and was a non theist at the time.
Fair enough.

I remain Quixotic and will continue, with my trusty sidekick Mike at my side, to tilt at the windmills of theism.

*Ok, Mike is imaginary but he rarely disagrees with me and I like that in a sidekick.
 
Fair enough.

I remain Quixotic and will continue, with my trusty sidekick Mike at my side, to tilt at the windmills of theism.

*Ok, Mike is imaginary but he rarely disagrees with me and I like that in a sidekick.

LOL! Well, I'll happily support you and Mike from behind the scenes.

These days, I have more of an issue with the 'paranormal' TV shows like Paranormal State and Door To The Dead that use religion to pedal their snake oil than religion itself.
 
I believe that there is a diamond buried in my back yard. It's not accessible as yet but someday natural forces will reveal it to me. The diamond gives me hope for the future. The diamond belongs to me and therefore it gives meaning and purpose to my life. The diamond has special properties and it can bring me good luck. It's mysterious so it doesn't always work to bring me good luck. As it turns out the diamond ensures that good and bad events happen in my life as often as those who don't have diamonds in their back yards. I believe that the diamond is there because my father told me about the diamond and because ancient nomadic people would pass along oral stories and traditions of mysterious diamonds buried in back yards revealed to the people by the diamonds. One day someone wrote down those stories and traditions and so the diamonds no longer reveal their secrets to people.

Well said. Nominated!
 
Fair enough.

I remain Quixotic and will continue, with my trusty sidekick Mike at my side, to tilt at the windmills of theism.

*Ok, Mike is imaginary but he rarely disagrees with me and I like that in a sidekick.

Step back off my shtick, friend.
 
I believe that there is a diamond buried in my back yard. It's not accessible as yet but someday natural forces will reveal it to me. The diamond gives me hope for the future. The diamond belongs to me and therefore it gives meaning and purpose to my life. The diamond has special properties and it can bring me good luck. It's mysterious so it doesn't always work to bring me good luck. As it turns out the diamond ensures that good and bad events happen in my life as often as those who don't have diamonds in their back yards. I believe that the diamond is there because my father told me about the diamond and because ancient nomadic people would pass along oral stories and traditions of mysterious diamonds buried in back yards revealed to the people by the diamonds. One day someone wrote down those stories and traditions and so the diamonds no longer reveal their secrets to people.


I don't follow how your discourse here relates to the OP. It seems a satire of those who believe without questioning but the passage quoted here does not appear to come from someone like that.
 
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Being the god cynic that I am, it sounds to me like no more than an apology for why there is no evidence of any real gods.
 

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