What does it take for rape to be taken seriously?

Professor Yaffle

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Professor Yaffle
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Sigh.

I know it's not that long ago since we had a huge number of threads about rape and the way it is handled by police and the courts, but I still feel I had to start this thread.

After the cases of John Warboys and Kirk Reid were completely bungled by London's specialist sex offences units - Sapphire - possibly at least partly because of severe underfunding/understaffing, I was particularly disheartened to read that the IPCC investigation of the failures will be relying on junior support staff.

Sometimes I just despair that anything will ever be done to improve on the dire way rape and sexual assault is handled in the UK.

"The problem really starts at the top and this report proves that," says Lisa Longstaff [of Representatives of Women Against Rape]. "The priorities for downgrading rape and under-resourcing rape in relation to other crimes are set by the very highest in the police. It's about orders from the top that make it clear this is a priority crime to be investigated ... In many cases the police just aren't doing the job once someone reports a rape to them. They're not interviewing witnesses, they're not taking forensic samples, they're not visiting the crime scenes. They're dismissing a lot of reports because of who the woman is and the circumstances in which the rape took place - if she's been drinking, or she's young, or has a history of mental health problems, or is an immigrant."
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/mar/27/rape-investigation-failings
 
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"...They're dismissing a lot of reports because of who the woman is and the circumstances in which the rape took place - if she's been drinking, or she's young, or has a history of mental health problems, or is an immigrant."
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I'm guessing that the main reason for not devoting a lot of resources to rape investigations in the circumstances quoted above is the very poor chance of obtaining a conviction. If that's the case, surely it's as much a problem of the courts and CPS as it is of the police?

Sorry if I'm rehashing old territory here, but what concrete measures could be adopted by police and courts to safely convict more rapists?
 
Carnivore said:
I'm guessing that the main reason for not devoting a lot of resources to rape investigations in the circumstances quoted above is the very poor chance of obtaining a conviction. If that's the case, surely it's as much a problem of the courts and CPS as it is of the police?

Sorry if I'm rehashing old territory here, but what concrete measures could be adopted by police and courts to safely convict more rapists?
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But it's not just those cases that seem to be going wrong (that's just a part of it) - if you look at both the Warboys and Reid cases as well as the whole of the last article I linked to,there are obviously severe underfunding and systemic failures going on. It is breathtakingly shocking.
 
Is it the attitudes of the investigators? The dinosaur mentality of "What do you expect if you dress like that?" Is it funding?


Would having more female investigators help to change this atmosphere (if that's part of the problem)? Would having more women in the supervisory positions of police agencies help?


Is it how society treats women, or how society raises its boys?


Sorry, I have no answers, only more questions.
 
Well, in th Warboys case, for example, one of the victims was told by a police officer "**** off, black-cab drivers don't do that sort of thing". And Reid was identified as a suspect in 2004 but nobody contacted him, or followed it up and probably attacked more than 20 women between then and the time he was finally caught. There were failures to test clothing for evidence because the officers "decided there was no point".

And remember, this is in a specialist rape unit.
 
Here's another take on it:

...
If we are going to understand rape, and why men like Warboys and Reid get away with it for so long, we need to understand the entire picture of sexual harassment and intimidation, which means that women - and for that matter men - will need to start talking about their experiences of sexual bullying. Rape, sadly, is part of a continuum, and some of the people who get away with this type of lower-key intimidation will carry on to do much, much worse. Equally a woman who has been subjected to a lifetime of minor sexual assaults without anybody - including themselves - taking them seriously may simply not see the point of reporting a rape.
...
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http://womanwhotalkedtoomuch.blogspot.com/2009/03/another-day-another-depressing-serial.html
 
Unconscionably negligent police work. Completely unacceptable.


I can't help but think more women in police work would help.
 
Here's to hoping this brings up some constructive dialogue and doesn't turn into another "it's better to convict innocent men of rape than let any guilty ones go free" type of thread.


Perhaps the problem that is brought up here is that it is a specialist rape unit. Maybe they get burned out? Is there any evidence that having specialist rape units is better than using general detectives to investigate the matter?
 
Travis said:
Here's to hoping this brings up some constructive dialogue and doesn't turn into another "it's better to convict innocent men of rape than let any guilty ones go free" type of thread.
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I've never seen anyone say that. At worst I've seen people assume that women almost never make false or inaccurate rape reports, and thus conclude that nearly every acquittal or dropped investigation means a rapist is loose on the streets.

It doesn't sound at all like this is the argument being made here. The argument being made here is that based on the cases under discussion the specialist sexual assault unit in the UK is doing an unacceptably poor job of investigating the crimes that get reported to it.

That should be a concern for everyone.

Perhaps the problem that is brought up here is that it is a specialist rape unit. Maybe they get burned out? Is there any evidence that having specialist rape units is better than using general detectives to investigate the matter?
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A good question. I guess it depends how competent the general detectives are.
 
Wildy said:
So what is your take on this?
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He makes a very some very points about its not the fault of individual police officers on the ground (in some cases) but a systemic failure much higher up the chain of command. The pressure to look like you are doing something to improve things when you have severely limited resources is great. Now they need to actually do something to sort it out for real not just apply a sticking plaster.

Another thing worth considering is that these Sapphire units, did actually increase rape convictions slightly - which implies that what went on before - and is still going on in many areas of the country was/is even worse. Convicion rates (for reported rapes) vary around the country from 3% up to 13%. London was probably just "unlucky" to have their serious deficiencies highlighted by these two high profile cases.
 
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It is a sad societal issue that crosses many boundaies of personal, social and cultural norms.

1. Family memebrs tolerate and minimze rape in many cases. (Most rape happens between family and friends of family)
2. Social stupidity where the victim is blamed.
3. Cultural inequity in access to power/resources.


So it is sad but talking about it and defusing the denial is the path to take.

The personal tolerance of rape in common is family rape and date rape. So I usually try to start there.
The social tolerance of marital rape is appaling.

It will take centuries.

Now the problem as I see it is everyone defines rape as stranger rape.

So you have this witch hunt mentality of 'child abusers' but then the personl minimization and denial of the actual crime.
We have date rape and marital rape, just casually dismissed by social norms.

Then there are the cultural inequities of women, children and the elederly in our society.

Stranger rape is often a very difficult case to persue. The rape kit experience itself is very difficult for victims.

And some idiots always demand that rape be held to a higher standard of evidence than any other crime.
 
People don't know how to handle rape. That's really the problem. In the past a woman was treated as though her sexuality was sacred and so rape was a horrible offense. In modern times however because females sexuality has become so vulgarized with porn, Madonna (oh thanks chippie for being so "empowered") and shows like "The Girls Next Store" and these klassy reality shows where women fight to get picked by some skeevy Bachelor, Rock Star, washed up B celebrity, it has become vile.

The idea of date rape, to me, quite honestly, is met with a lot of cynicism. I don't see how a woman in this day and age can wind up naked upstairs in a man's hotel room after a few drinks and not know this is probably a very stupid idea.

I also don't understand the double standard that seems to apply, if a woman gets drunk her judgement is diminished and she's not held responsible for her actions. But a man in the same position is a rapist.

But I know that men and women both need to be responisble.

To me, date rape is rarely what I would consider a true rape. Poor judgment on a woman's part does not a rapist make.

I don't think I'm the only one who is curious how a woman gets herself in such a compromising position in the first place.

What makes me annoyed with this is the way that what I consider "true rape victims" to be not taken as seriously because of this. When I hear rape I think of a few situations, incest, a stranger attacking a woman, and the date rape drug, those are basically the situations that I consider an indisputable rape.

Date rape? I always get conflicted about.
 
It's disgusting, really. I have friends who have been raped, as I have mentioned here before, and it's downright nauseating - literally - to have to hear and read all the disgusting nonsense from people who simply haven't got a clue, but latches on to the "omgz rape is fun lol!1" trend of so many teens, or the archaic idea that rape is no big deal, that the victim is to blame, or some other variation of the utter stupidity that is today's attitudes on sexual abuse. Not to mention that rape victims have the court system against them in the few cases they dare press charges.

OP said:
What does it take for rape to be taken seriously?
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When even women spout stuff like this...
truethat said:
The idea of date rape, to me, quite honestly, is met with a lot of cynicism. I don't see how a woman in this day and age can wind up naked upstairs in a man's hotel room after a few drinks and not know this is probably a very stupid idea.

I also don't understand the double standard that seems to apply, if a woman gets drunk her judgement is diminished and she's not held responsible for her actions. But a man in the same position is a rapist.

But I know that men and women both need to be responsible.

To me, date rape is rarely what I would consider a true rape. Poor judgment on a woman's part does not a rapist make.
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...I'm inclined to answer something to the nature of "quite a lot".

balrog666 said:
Talking about rape is going to solve it? In what universe?
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I agree, far better to let all the ignoramuses spout all their destructive, hurtful and rape-encouraging ******** while turning a blind ear. Who cares it is legitimizes rape? Who cares about all the victims who has to listen to morons talking about how it's their fault or how they 'asked for it'? Who cares about spreading information in a clueless society, when the consequence of not doing it are so severe?

I do.
 
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The situations cited remind me very much of the way rape reports were handled here in the US 30 or so years ago.
Unless the victim had been viciously assaulted, it was often assumed that she had merely placed herself in harm's way....
Often, investigating officers spent more time trying to prove that the "venue" of the offense took place in someone else's jurisdiction than they did investigating.

The situation has been greatly improved in the intervening years, with complaints taken seriously, most departments having dedicated "sexual assault" units and specially-trained investigators, and the justice system prosecuting offenses as the serious crimes that they are.
Not all sweetness and light, of course, and we still get reports of some fossilized judge making comments about the victim's clothing or other silliness, but in general a great improvement.
 
This might seem a bit of tangent but I think it is important to know so we can have a meaningful discussion about this particular issue (policing and the crimes): how much worse is the handling of these types of crimes compared to other types of crimes?

I have a suspicion that overall the competency of the police is not what we would want.
 
The situations cited remind me very much of the way rape reports were handled here in the US 30 or so years ago.
Unless the victim had been viciously assaulted, it was often assumed that she had merely placed herself in harm's way....
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Just 30 years ago? As far as I know, Norwegian law still states that unless you offer physical resistance, the rapist couldn't be convicted. And I believe I read in an encyclopedia that US law had it that spousal rape wasn't rape until 1996.

Not all sweetness and light, of course, and we still get reports of some fossilized judge making comments about the victim's clothing or other silliness, but in general a great improvement.
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Probably. Easy to see all the [rule whatever] and not the specks of gold buried in it.
 
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