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The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

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Hope you're working hard, too, neltana. ;)

Yes, my place of work has decided to see if they can induce death by conference call. Coming up on my third of the day! Yay!

How come BF gets to eat 9000 calories a day...I eat 2800 and look like the Pillsbury Dougboy. There is no justice in the world!

I do question how firmly the 9000 to 12000 calorie a day estimate has been established. It makes some assumptions about weight and lifestyle and could be way off, if we allow ourselves to entertain that Patty is a BF for a moment.
 
Well, gorillas and black bears, mammals of a comparable size and weight to the projected BF, require about the same amount of caloric intake. You only need 2800 because you weigh less than 300 pounds. (For more discussion on this point, which is OT for this thread, see the "unambiguous photo/video" thread.)
 
[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_2341149ccdd7e408da.jpg[/URL]

As Greg points out, this isn't really a good profile shot of Patty. So you won't be able to get a very good front-to-back measure. As illustration, I have put a shot of Patty and then two of myself: one about 3/4 from the back and 1 a profile.

As you can see, while I am a walking tub of lard, I appear much thicker when viewed in 3/4.


Here's how you can tell what angle you're actually seeing a subject from.

Since the arm is centered on the body, from front-to-back...when the body is viewed squarely from the side, the arm (also, the shoulder joint) will appear centered, between the visible front and rear edges.

In your pictures, neltana....you can see that the center-line of your arm (in blue) moves forwards, and backwards (relative to the visible edges of the body, in red)...as the angle of view changes...

Neltana2.jpg



Patty's arm/shoulder joint appears very close to being centered on her body, so this view is very close to being exactly from the side.
 
Yeti, you're correct in that the pic of Patty under review is a profile shot, with a slight rotation toward a three-quarters-rear view (note the line of the spine at left, which would not be visible if it were 100% profile).

For all intents and purposes it's a profile view.

EDIT: Is this a great hobby, or what? What other pastime involves the close inspection of pictures of naked fat guys in the snow? (No offense, neltana, but you know, you did put yourself out there.... :D)
 
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OH, I know. If I had been able to get a non-fat model, I would have. I was working on a response to the "bulging calf muscle" gif one weekend...still need to post that.

I think the rotation in Patty's upper body, though, makes it not a profile shot. Imagine you are photographing my head from the side. It is only considered a true profile if I'm looking straight ahead. If I turn my head to face the camera, it is not considered a profile. My contention is that a 3/4 (ish...but you can clearly see a lot of the back) turn makes it problematic as a profile.

Now, this isn't necessarily a problem. But I want to encourage Sweaty to ensure that any comparison images he uses have a similar upper body rotation. Otherwise, the conclusions might be questionable and get in the way of the point he is trying to make.
 
kitakaze wrote:

Have you made those statements factual as if I were to say that a six inch pencil could not fit a 3 inch pencil case? Yes or no? (And no, a broken pencil does not count)

The answer to some points I've made is yes, and to some of the points I've made is no.

Again....I'm not playing your games, kitty....this one being "Answer to the Judge....kitakaze...."Tell me what you have proven".

What a weird little "maybe yes, maybe no" answer. Were you confused about what I was specifically asking about or were you intentionally trying to obfuscate it. But please continue...

I don't have the time to debate with you, or anybody else, what the strength of every little point that I've made, is.

What an interesting choice of words you've made there, Sweaty. Makes it sound like I've made an unfulfillable and unreasonable request. Asking you to assess the strength of every little point you've made. No, see, I asked you in that post only to give an intellectually honest answer about the veracity and factual nature of two, only two, statements. Let me show them to you again to jog your memory:

1) All of the comparisons between Bob and Patty, which show differences in their body proportions that can't be accounted for by a 'padded suit'.

(snip)

2) The fact that Bob has described the alleged suit in a way that makes absolutely no sense......saying the suit had 'shoulder pads' and a 'helmet', when it couldn't have had either one in it.

All I asked you was a question intended to show whether or not you are capable of even the simplest intellectual honesty. The answer, of course as we can see, is that you are not. You could not even provide a simple, straight answer and had to obfuscate it with non sequiturs and straw men.

All one needs to do to check whether or not those two statements you made have been established as fact is to check the last couple pages. Any moron with an ounce of honesty could easily admit that no, they haven't been established as fact or the key arguments addressed.

The ultimate point, which is no rathole or sidetrail, is that when you say those statements trump any point I may have about clear proof of Bob Heironimus' involvement in Roger Patterson's Bigfoot activities at the time of the PGF, you are in fact merely letting wind fly from your pants. It's an excellent demonstration of how even the simplest points cause you to fall apart in a mess of obfuscation and evasion. Any intellectually honest person could admit the major significance to Bob's claims of being Patty the fact that he was involved with Patterson's film at the time. Only you here, Sweaty, are the person here that can't even muster up the courage to deal with it. After so much coaxing to answer why he is in the images, all you can say is "I don't know but it doesn't matter because my arguments have won and there's no way it could be him." How lame is that? You're so afraid and so clammed up in your footer shell that you can't even emerge long enough to just try and honestly think about why Bob H is in the images with Patterson and on his film.

I'm glad you're at least trying to address Vort's questions. You could learn so very much from him. Mine simply cause you to lose function in an intelligent conversation.
 
I've downloaded that video of Ted Cassidy, and I'm going to use stills from it to compare it with one of the images you posted of Ted, in plain clothes.....to see if, in fact, that suit he was wearing was actually making his CHEST appear to be wider. (The chest-width is the much more significant, and 'telling' body dimension, with regards to padding, because the more it's "padded-out", the harder it'll become for the arms to appear, and move, normally.)

It didn't look to me like his chest was padded-out....or, if it was, it was only a minor amount.

Well, since this is something you are going to to and have not done it yet or demonstrated it in any way and have only offered a subjective opinion, we can't take it as any real type of argument, can we?

I've already posted images in which I've highlighted some discrepancies in the limb lengths of those 2 skeletons.

What an insincere and unhelpful answer, Sweaty.

Vort: Excuse me, do you know the way to the train station?

Sweaty: I've already explained the way to the train station.

What, no link? No point in the right direction? Can't you throw Vort a bone? He's asking you a simple question. He just said that the skeletal overlays have become of central importance in his upcoming article. If there truly exists discrepancies in the limb lengths, then the comparison are invalid, dishonest, and should be thrown out. That's what you just accused mangler of - intentionally fudging his results to achieve desired results and thus committing his own type of hoax. How lame is that? Once again...

Bada bing:



Bada boom:



Oops for you:



It makes me feel warm and fuzzy how much you must hate the magical skeletons and how these images have vexed you.;)


The other day I asked kitty what program is it that those skeletons are generated from.....so I can see how they move, and change, within the program itself.....and try to replicate what's being shown in the images they've posted.
But I haven't seen an answer to that request, anywhere.

Hey, Sweaty! Maybe I should have noticed that and given you the exact same type of answer you gave Vort. Yes, the program and details have already been given to you when you first tried to quibble them and insinuate that mangler was cheating despicably.

But hey! Oops for you! Mangler gave it to you again. Poser 7. There you go, you're well on your way to repeatability, right?:cool:
 
That's supposed to be a profile shot? How can it be given what we know about the PGF?

Lets take a look in motion.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/files/mk_davis_pgf.gif

No profile shot in the whole sequence, imo. Or even close to one.



At least as far as Patty's upper body is concerned, she most definitely is seen in straight-on profile view, when she turns to look at Roger.

A few posts ago, I explained how it can be determined at which (approximate) angle a subject is being viewed, with those lined images of neltana.
 
kitakaze wrote:
You're so afraid and so clammed up in your footer shell that you can't even emerge long enough to just try and honestly think about why Bob H is in the images with Patterson and on his film.


You think that Bob being in some part of Roger's filming proves that 'Bob was Patty'. Good for you, kitty.



After so much coaxing to answer why he is in the images, all you can say is "I don't know but it doesn't matter because my arguments have won and there's no way it could be him." How lame is that?

That's not exactly what I said.

Here is the actual quote:

I don't know why Bob was in those pictures.


It doesn't matter to me, because:

1) All of the comparisons between Bob and Patty, which show differences in their body proportions that can't be accounted for by a 'padded suit'.

BTW, there's another comparison I'm working on, which shows another major difference between them, which may not be accountable for by a padded suit.


...and, also..


2) The fact that Bob has described the alleged suit in a way that makes absolutely no sense......saying the suit had 'shoulder pads' and a 'helmet', when it couldn't have had either one in it.



I have my reasons for thinking what I think about the probability of Bob being Patty......and you have your reasons for thinking what you think.

Like I said last night.....I'm not getting into a shouting match with you, over who has the "better" reasons, or anything else.

And that's exactly what your last post was....your end of a 'shouting match'.

But I'm not playing along.........you think whatever you want to think.
 
Do you have an pictures of what you have so far? Are you going for a complete Patty match, or just focusing on reproducing some aspect a la Dfoot?

Just curious, really.
 
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Do you have any pictures of what you have so far?

Just curious, really.


I don't have any pictures, yet. It's not far enough along....I've just started cutting some pieces.
But I'm planning on spending some time on it this weekend. It won't be too long before I can have some pictures to post.


Are you going for a complete Patty match, or just focusing on reproducing some aspect a la Dfoot?


I'm trying to replicate Patty's upper body dimensions, mainly, to see how the arms look when they swing back and forth.
 
Yeti, once again, forgive me, but I can't help but notice that you've declined to respond to my posting of the Ted Cassidy/Ruk pic that clearly shows he was wearing sizable chest padding. This following your statements of opinion that the padding was slight or non-existent, and that such bulky padding would inhibit full arm movement.

But Yeti, thirty to forty-five minutes spent watching the relevant segments of the Trek episode would show you that free arm movement is possible within a heavily padded suit. You don't have to make your own suit, thereby deferring this question for weeks or months while you craft it. It's right there on video, easily accessible via youtube, in good quality definition on the cbs youtube site.

You can also clearly see the heavy chest padding in the pic I re-posted, above, which can be compared to any pic of Cassidy as Lurch on the Addams Family show to see how substantial the padding is.

Also, I would ask you once more to state your precise objection to the skeletal overlays. I cannot rake through 20+ pages of a thread looking for a single post which addresses this question. It's not simply a time issue, it's that I very probably would not be able to find the post to which you've referred me. Can you please just take two or three minutes and write a short paragraph explaining how the Poser 7 figure with human skeletal proportions is in any way an unsatisfactory match to the P-G figure?

Thanks in advance.
 
What happened to the bigfoot suit Sweaty was making?

I'm still waiting for him to drag in a squatch so I can get those tattoos...

RayG said:
Well, bag one, classify it, and I'll get the word 'STUPID' tattooed on my forehead. Fair enough?

RayG said:
C'mon Sweaty, bring in a real squatch and I'll add 'IDIOT' to my stupid tattoo, right in the middle of my forehead.

Jeebus, get a move on wouldja Sweaty, I ain't getting any younger!!

RayG
 
Yeti, once again, forgive me, but I can't help but notice that you've declined to respond to my posting of the Ted Cassidy/Ruk pic that clearly shows he was wearing sizable chest padding. This following your statements of opinion that the padding was slight or non-existent, and that such bulky padding would inhibit full arm movement.



I'm going to try to post some stills of Ted, from that Star Trek video, later today.
I just haven't had the time to get to it, yet....that's all.

As long as I don't run into any technical difficulties extracting frames from the video, I'll definitely post them today.


But Yeti, thirty to forty-five minutes spent watching the relevant segments of the Trek episode would show you that free arm movement is possible within a heavily padded suit. You don't have to make your own suit, thereby deferring this question for weeks or months while you craft it. It's right there on video, easily accessible via youtube, in good quality definition on the cbs youtube site.

You can also clearly see the heavy chest padding in the pic I re-posted, above, which can be compared to any pic of Cassidy as Lurch on the Addams Family show to see how substantial the padding is.

Also, I would ask you once more to state your precise objection to the skeletal overlays. I cannot rake through 20+ pages of a thread looking for a single post which addresses this question. It's not simply a time issue, it's that I very probably would not be able to find the post to which you've referred me. Can you please just take two or three minutes and write a short paragraph explaining how the Poser 7 figure with human skeletal proportions is in any way an unsatisfactory match to the P-G figure?

Thanks in advance.


I'll respond to the rest of your post later today.....I promise! :)
 
You think that Bob being in some part of Roger's filming proves that 'Bob was Patty'. Good for you, kitty.

You know, of course, the dead end that will result if I ask you to post where I have said Bob being part of Roger's filming is proof of BH's claim. But I do note your maneuver now. I note that you try to again underhandedly dismiss any meaningful address of the situation by assigning a straw man argument to me, making a trite comment on it, and flittering away. Are you really so fearful and loathe to just take it on and deal with it? I can only see your behaviour with this extremely important issue regarding Bob's claim as a screaming example of bias and intellectual cowardice.

Bob Heironimus was involved with Roger Patterson's filming. You said it yourself. BH was there around the time of the PGF's creation and involved with RP's Bigfoot activities. He's no random nutjob seeking attention and fame. He's stated matter of factly that he would like to at least see the money he was promised but never given by RP. We know how good RP is at swindling money. We have proof of it. Not at all is BH some nut bum of the street. He was there. He was a friend. He was a neighbour. He was giving assistance to Patterson and Gimlin. His horse was at Bluff Creek. These are facts. They are not up for debate. They are known elements. They are not proof of BH's claims. But they do demand examination. All these facts cause in you is the dance of the believer. Why can't you handle the truth, Sweaty?

After so much coaxing to answer why he is in the images, all you can say is "I don't know but it doesn't matter because my arguments have won and there's no way it could be him." How lame is that?
That's not exactly what I said.

Quite right. It's not verbatim what you said. But it is an accurate summation. Here's why:

Here is the actual quote:

I don't know why Bob was in those pictures.


It doesn't matter to me, because:

1) All of the comparisons between Bob and Patty, which show differences in their body proportions that can't be accounted for by a 'padded suit'.

BTW, there's another comparison I'm working on, which shows another major difference between them, which may not be accountable for by a padded suit.


...and, also..


2) The fact that Bob has described the alleged suit in a way that makes absolutely no sense......saying the suit had 'shoulder pads' and a 'helmet', when it couldn't have had either one in it.

Reasons:
Shoulder pads.....the entire upper torso (if a suit) was custom-formed padding...therefore, there would not have been a reason to include a separate shoulder pad unit.

Helmet......Simply no room inside of Patty's cone-shaped head for anything that resembled an old style football helmet.


That trumps Bob simply being in a picture with Roger.

It also trumps Bob 'living on the same street' with Gimlin
.

How than is my paraphrasing of your post inaccurate? What is the mistake in interpretting it as "I don't know but it doesn't matter because my arguments have won and there's no way it could be him"? I see definite statements as fact there by you. I see no qualifiers. I see no "I think" or "IMO". I see only you speaking in absolutes saying that claim is factual and has won the argument. So this following statement didn't really apply to what you said and my assessment was quite fair:

I have my reasons for thinking what I think about the probability of Bob being Patty......and you have your reasons for thinking what you think.

BTW, you know what is the difference? We don't fear to examine and dissect your reasons for thinking that BH could not be Patty. We do quite well with them and time and again have shot them down contrary to your statement about trumping. You, OTOH, obviously seem to fear addressing major issues like this particular one I keep coaxing you to deal with. You dance all over the place just trying to get away from it. Say what? BH is in Roger's filming? I don't care.:rolleyes:

It's pretty obvious for those of us familiar with your maneuvers.

But I'm not playing along.........you think whatever you want to think.

Not engaging in sincere debate or displaying any real interest in pursuing the truth? No. No, you are not.;)
 
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