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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
But Mormons didn't create what some people (like prolific reader Thomas Jefferson) say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known. This greatest system of morality adds to the likelihood that Christianity is true. And you forget Mormonism needed Christianity in order to come into existence, Christianity didn't need Mormonism at all.
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@DOC:

Please, stop being an arse

Christianity is NOT the greatest system of morality

Its a joke
 
L The Detective said:
Of course you believe that. You are already emotionally invested in your own brand of Christianity, which makes you extremely cynical about Joseph Smith. On the other hand if you were a Mormon, you would give Joseph Smith the benefit of the doubt and have faith in him. The only difference between yourself and a Mormon is that you happened to have picked different beliefs to satisfy the same emotional needs.

Stop trying to disguise your desires as "reasons."
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I've given my reasons based on facts in my 560 posts in this thread. Those cold facts have nothing to do with emotion.
 
DOC said:
But Mormons didn't create what some people (like prolific reader Thomas Jefferson) say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known. This greatest system of morality adds to the likelihood that Christianity is true. And you forget Mormonism needed Christianity in order to come into existence, Christianity didn't need Mormonism at all.
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Is this the same system of morality that condoned slavery?

That's not very moral.

ETA:
I can't help but notice you didn't actually refute my point.
So, Let me restate it.

"Yes there were some miracles in the OT, but I don't see Jesus performing miracles. Life was very boring back then. Maybe all the stuff that happened with Jesus and his followers relieved their boredom." AND considering that Jesus condoned slavery, it's clear it wasn't very moral.
 
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DOC said:
So you don't believe in Mormonism but you think I should.
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Nopers, and I never said that, did I? I asked you what your issues were with Cowdery and Harris, and you replied with instances that are supported by the Bible (drowsing rods and physical tranformations). If those are your reasons, they're pretty weak, and should logically call into question your faith in the Bible as well.

You'll note those are not my reasons for disbelieving the LDS faith. Those things could have happened, as they could have happened in the Bible. My lack of faith in Smith and his religion is based on what I consider to be contradictions and evidence which point to it being a concocted story.

I've read enough about Joseph Smith to believe he was a psychopath with delusions of grandeur. Psychopaths can be very charming and persuasive.
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These are contradictory statements. Psychopaths are, by definition, antisocial which can manifest in strong agressive, and/or criminal behavior. According to the DSM-IV, psychopathy is strongly correlated with antisocial personality disorder, and Joseph Smith was nothing if not warm, charming, and only very rarely on the wrong side of law, usually as a political issue, though once for "treasure hunting".

You still haven't addressed my question regarding the other witnesses. I assume, at this point, since I've pointed to them at least twice before, that you are simply dodging this portion of the question, probably because you have no reasonable argument for why we should deny their particular testimony.

DOC said:
But Mormons didn't create what some people (like prolific reader Thomas Jefferson) say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known. This greatest system of morality adds to the likelihood that Christianity is true.
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Completely untrue. The LDS Word of Wisdom, along with other portions of the Doctrines and Covenants, have as strong if not stronger moral code than any mainstream Christian religion today.

And you forget Mormonism needed Christianity in order to come into existence, Christianity didn't need Mormonism at all.
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What does this prove? Christianity needed Judaism in order to come into existence. Judaism didn't need Christianity at all.
 
DOC said:
I've read enough about Joseph Smith to believe he was a psychopath
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Wiki - The psychopath is defined by a psychological gratification in criminal, sexual, or aggressive impulses and the inability to learn from past mistakes. Individuals with this disorder gain satisfaction through their antisocial behavior and lack remorse for their actions.

Read the following and see if anyone strikes you as a psychopath
Genesis

19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

Exodus

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Numbers
15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Joshua

10:10 And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah. 10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

Samuel

6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.

Kings 2

2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Chronicles

32:21 And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.

Issiah

37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
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DOC said:
I've given my reasons based on facts in my 560 posts in this thread. Those cold facts have nothing to do with emotion.
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No, but how you link them together to form your case does. Your arguments are based on flawed reasoning. When people point out these flaws, you ignore them. You don't make any effort to correct your logic or stop using logical fallacies. Why is that?

It's because you don't really care if your logic is flawed or not. Your overriding interest is in justifying your emotional belief. This entire thread is just a little game of "facts," for you to play in which you arrange them in whatever way best suits your desires. Your "reasons" are nothing more than a facade. The true reason is *desire.*
 
DOC said:
But Mormons didn't create what some people (like prolific reader Thomas Jefferson) say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known. This greatest system of morality adds to the likelihood that Christianity is true. And you forget Mormonism needed Christianity in order to come into existence, Christianity didn't need Mormonism at all.
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Your premise that Christianity is the "greatest system of morality" is unsupported. Using "Thomas Jefferson" is an appeal to authority. These are blatant logical fallacies, to put it in very basic terms, your arguments just don't make sense. They don't work.

If you're going to try to use logic to make your points, at least learn to do it correctly. Otherwise your facade will be too transparent.
 
joobz said:
Summary of DOC's views up to now.

1.) Jesus didn't condone Slavery, even though the bible says otherwise.
2.) Fanciful bible stories are acceptable but fanciful mormon stories aren't.
3.) Reported witnesses of fanciful bible stories are reliable but first hand witnesses of fanciful mormon stories aren't.
4.) Murder rate, divorce rate, incarceration rate aren't good indicators of morality, but suicide rate is.
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Thanks for the summary, joobz. It's helpful.
 
DOC said:
Possibly and that's what worries me, and it should worry atheists too because after the Muslim religion overwhelms Europe in 100 to 200 years because of a high birth rate the European atheists are going to get a big your not welcome sign or worse. Then they will probably have to move to Christian America. Those riots in the streets of France last year by disenchanted Muslim youth are probably just a taste of things to come.
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Surely the influence of Muhammed demonstrates he was right? Isn't that how your argument goes?
 
arthwollipot said:
Thanks for the summary, joobz. It's helpful.
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I don't think it is. It's the same nonsense since DOC's first post.

DOC has become the whipping post for the forum. He is a great practice dummy for beginning debaters since he is downright terrible at it; a great study at how NOT to use logical fallacies and is a great case study at what religion does to people's intelligence.
 
DOC said:
But Mormons didn't create what some people (like prolific reader Thomas Jefferson) say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known.
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But Mormons did create what some people (like prolific writers Orson Scott Card
 or Glen Larson) implicitly say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known.



You are also wrong about your 'Muslims taking Europe over' fantaisy.
While it is true that a number of Muslims emigrated to Europe in the 60ies and 70ies and that these population tend to have a higher birth rate than 'native' Europeans, this second generation, by and large, are secular and abandon the faith of their Muslim fathers, just like the 'native' Europeans did with the Christian faith. That is part of the assimilation process.

Sure, some of these people do keep practising Islam and some even, mostly as a reaction to societal racism, do adopt a hard-line version of it, much different than the one their parents believed in, but we are talking about a tiny minority here.
 
Simon39759 said:
But Mormons did create what some people (like prolific writers Orson Scott Card
 or Glen Larson) implicitly say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known.
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While I agree with your conclusion (as I did right here), your evidence is faulty. Both Card and Larson are LDS, and are fiction writers. They do not speak from a position of knowledge or expertise, and they're heavily biased, having relied on LDS mythos in their work.

The Enstrom study goes some distance to supporting this, but as he only (and wisely) deals with health issues, it doesn't cover the entire distance. But he does state that the LDS who adhere to the Word of Wisdom and other religious strictures are considered a low-risk group. This doesn't prove causation, but the correlation is fairly strong.
 
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DOC said:
But Mormons didn't create what some people (like prolific reader Thomas Jefferson) say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known.
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Thomas Jefferson died 1 year before Joseph Smith, Jr was given the golden plates and 4 years before the book of Mormon was published.

See if you can work out why prolific reader Thomas Jefferson rejected Mormonism.
 
Lothian said:
Thomas Jefferson died 1 year before Joseph Smith, Jr was given the golden plates and 4 years before the book of Mormon was published.

See if you can work out why prolific reader Thomas Jefferson rejected Mormonism.
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Wait, wait . . . I know this one . . . almost there. Almost there!

No, I lost it.

Spell it out for me! :p
 
I don't get why DOC keeps talking about the Jefferson Bible?
I don't think DOC knows what it is about and what Jefferson thought of Christianity.
 
paximperium said:
I don't think it is. It's the same nonsense since DOC's first post.
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I thought the sarcasm was understood in art's post.

paximperium said:
DOC has become the whipping post for the forum. He is a great practice dummy for beginning debaters since he is downright terrible at it; a great study at how NOT to use logical fallacies and is a great case study at what religion does to people's intelligence.
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Considering that Geisler is a role model for him, it's not too shocking. But, I do not see any advantage in insulting him directly. I simply push the logic of his argument and let that speak for itself.
 
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