Steel failing in hydrocarbon fires.

[Holler Hoojer]

I said yes.

Now Mr. Architect?

Given unlimited funds and proper facilities could you recreate in a physical controlled test the amount of sag NIST input in their computer model to initiate collapse on a recreation of a WTC floor truss?

How much Jet Fuel and building contents would you need to make this happen in 1 hour or less?

Yumping Yimini! You should have just asked one of us old guys. In the early part of the twentieth century, some blacksmiths used gasoline or kerosene fueled forges and they could forge weld with it. These forges were sold that way, so the catalog info still exists. Sorry, but yinz guys are 100 years too late with your claims.

 

[BenBurch]

Yumping Yimini! You should have just asked one of us old guys. In the early part of the twentieth century, some blacksmiths used gasoline or kerosene fueled forges and they could forge weld with it. These forges were sold that way, so the catalog info still exists. Sorry, but yinz guys are 100 years too late with your claims.

Our Farrier used a kerosene forge even in the 1970s. Worked fine.

 

[TJM]

And even though it didn't destroy any columns it did almost bring the tower down. But for reasons that I doubt any truther could understand.

Really? That's fascinating. I never knew the tower was in that much trouble. Any material available on that? That's something I'd like to know more about.

 

[BenBurch]

Really? That's fascinating. I never knew the tower was in that much trouble. Any material available on that? That's something I'd like to know more about.

The issue was the wall that held the sea out if I recall correctly. Had that failed, the foundations would have failed, and the tower would have fallen.

 

[TJM]

The issue was the wall that held the sea out if I recall correctly. Had that failed, the foundations would have failed, and the tower would have fallen.

Thank you. That should be enough info for an investigoogle. Thanks again.

 

[bob the analyst]

people claimed that the steel in wtc 1, 2 and 7 could not with stand the heat and the temperature, the gamut has run from the steel melting all the way to it was softened, weakened, the compositry and the metallurgy and the chemistry was destroyed!

That same steel that was was shipped to China was re-circulated and re-used from the wtc 1, 2 and 7

That's right, remember not too long ago, the big fire in Beijing, the steel used in the Beijing hotel, the Mandarin hotel, that caught on fire and was burnt and gutted, but is still standing and it is being re-built right now, not even torn down.

That was the wtc steel that was salvaged from New york.

 

[TexasJack]

people claimed that the steel in wtc 1, 2 and 7 could not with stand the heat and the temperature, the gamut has run from the steel melting all the way to it was softened, weakened, the compositry and the metallurgy and the chemistry was destroyed!

What kind of stand are you referring to?

 

[bob the analyst]

What kind of stand are you referring to?

the strutcural steel used in the building assemblies

 

[TexasJack]

the strutcural steel used in the building assemblies

Thanks for playing.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I'm just curious as to whether the materials used in the construction of all of the examples cited are the only venues of concern for those making the contention that since no other steel structure of that size had ever collapsed, it should never have happened at all. Why are are other aspects of a design ignored under these circumstances?

 

[Pardalis]

people claimed that the steel in wtc 1, 2 and 7 could not with stand the heat and the temperature, the gamut has run from the steel melting all the way to it was softened, weakened, the compositry and the metallurgy and the chemistry was destroyed!

That same steel that was was shipped to China was re-circulated and re-used from the wtc 1, 2 and 7

That's right, remember not too long ago, the big fire in Beijing, the steel used in the Beijing hotel, the Mandarin hotel, that caught on fire and was burnt and gutted, but is still standing and it is being re-built right now, not even torn down.

That was the wtc steel that was salvaged from New york.

Really? Do you have any proof of that? How do you know that?

 

[bob the analyst]

Really? Do you have any proof of that? How do you know that?

I just told you, so I saved you a lot of time, but it's rather easy to look up, start googling where the Mandarin hotel steel was bought from.

 

[Pardalis]

I just told you, so I saved you a lot of time, but it's rather easy to look up, start googling where the Mandarin hotel steel was bought from.

I won't take your word for it. Tell me where you got that info.

 

[BenBurch]

I won't take your word for it. Tell me where you got that info.

He's wrong. The steel was long gone by the time that hotel was started.

But he is WAY stupid in several other ways;

1. Utterly different sort of construction.

2. Utterly different sort of fireproofing.

3. Utterly different sort of fire (no damage from an aircraft!)

4. Steel when recycled is almost always changed with respect to carbon content and exact alloying, so its not even the same steel even had it been some of the same iron.

Again, a third string volunteer sausage.

 

[Pardalis]

4. Steel when recycled is almost always changed with respect to carbon content and exact alloying, so its not even the same steel even had it been some of the same iron.

That's what I was thinking, using used steel to build skyscrapers seems extremely stupid to me, and frightening.

 

[beachnut]

people claimed that the steel in wtc 1, 2 and 7 could not with stand the heat and the temperature, the gamut has run from the steel melting all the way to it was softened, weakened, the compositry and the metallurgy and the chemistry was destroyed!

That same steel that was was shipped to China was re-circulated and re-used from the wtc 1, 2 and 7

That's right, remember not too long ago, the big fire in Beijing, the steel used in the Beijing hotel, the Mandarin hotel, that caught on fire and was burnt and gutted, but is still standing and it is being re-built right now, not even torn down.

That was the wtc steel that was salvaged from New york.

the compositry and the metallurgy and the chemistry

What does this mean oh great NIST technical writer?

Does this mean you support the fact steel fails in fire?
Can you explain how steel is recycled, the process?

Computer class has ended in middle school for our NIST tech writer.

 

[Pardalis]

I wonder if there are still traces of microthermite in the Mandarin hotel... We need to warn them that their building is about to blow at any moment!

 

[BenBurch]

That's what I was thinking, using used steel to build skyscrapers seems extremely stupid to me, and frightening.

These people recycle steel; http://www.nucor.com/

They do it in large carbon arc crucibles, and the exactly chemistry of the steel is very significant to the process, and they will use scrap from different sources and add things to get the right chemistry for the grade of steel they want to make. They have a continuous casting operation which was groundbreaking when they began doing it.

A book "American Steel" was written about their first mill, which was in Indiana.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

people claimed that the steel in wtc 1, 2 and 7 could not with stand the heat and the temperature, the gamut has run from the steel melting all the way to it was softened, weakened, the compositry and the metallurgy and the chemistry was destroyed!

That same steel that was was shipped to China was re-circulated and re-used from the wtc 1, 2 and 7

That's right, remember not too long ago, the big fire in Beijing, the steel used in the Beijing hotel, the Mandarin hotel, that caught on fire and was burnt and gutted, but is still standing and it is being re-built right now, not even torn down.

That was the wtc steel that was salvaged from New york.

Recall, Professor, that the gist was that the steel failed in the fire zones partially because of the disloging of the fireproofing, thus exposing them to heat-weakening, as well as the overload on the remaining supports caused by the severing of other supports when the jets impacted. Furthermore, the fires ended up having an even greater effect on the exposed steel because the severing of the water mains by the impact kept firefighting efforts from being successful. It's not simply about heat degredation, it's a combination of factors. The NIST report deals with this.

If you remove any of those problems, say by overengineering the structure to account for the additional load imposed by severed columns, or designing ways to mitigate the effects of fire - either by protecting steel better - say, by encasing it in concrete - and/or including a much more robust firefighting system - then you end up with a far different scenario than what happened at the Twin Towers. Anyway, my point here is that comparing the Mandarin Oriental fire in Beijing with the Twin Towers is not straightforward. The Mandarin Oriental fire, for example, had the benefit of active firefighting efforts helping mitigate the effects. Furthermore, the building had a concrete and steel framing, as opposed to the simple steel framing the WTC Twin Towers had. But above and beyond all of that, let's also remember that it was specifically built to standards improved by the knowledge gained from studying the Twin Towers tragedy. Arup's knowledge of the WTC fires and collapse was specifically applied to buildings like this. In a way, 9/11 influenced this building's design. So it's every bit as ridiculous to compare Mandarin Oriental's fire to the WTC ones as it is to compare crash injuries in a modern car to one from the 1930s; those older cars don't have the benefit of crumple zones or effective passenger restraints, not like the airbags and seat belts a modern car has. Similarly, the Mandarin Oriental didn't have steel by be the main supporting element, nor did the designers merely rely on the spray-on fire resistent material that was used in the WTC. On top of that, the thermal distortions Arup has made much noise about would have been fully taken into consideration in the Mandarin Oriental's design.

It's not a good comparison to make. The latter resists better because of what was discovered about the former. The latter does not invalidate the narrative about the former whatsoever; if anything, because it was designed to newer standards, it validates the acceptance of the narrative by engineers.

 

[bob the analyst]

What does this mean oh great NIST technical writer?

Does this mean you support the fact steel fails in fire?
Can you explain how steel is recycled, the process?

Computer class has ended in middle school for our NIST tech writer.

Well, I will encouraging to drop your childish and insultive tone towards me and others, no one can take someone such as you seriously, your voracity of illogic doesn't bode well for you when you show such juvenile tendancies in your posting mannersims.

let's hope for your sake, should you want to maintain the privelege of posting in here, that you change your style and your attitude towards me and towards the othersd that you attack in here.

If I catch you making an attack, a verbal assualt again, towards me or anyone else, i will recommend your bansihment from this property