• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Steel failing in hydrocarbon fires.

Absolutely I can reproduce that. Cost of the full-scale model of 40 floors of one of the buildings to do it will be around 400 million dollars. Used jetliner about 120 million + another million for retrofitting for remote control. I'll need about 40 acres in the Mohave desert too - should be fairly cheap. When will you wire the money? I can get started right away.
 
Absolutely I can reproduce that. Cost of the full-scale model of 40 floors of one of the buildings to do it will be around 400 million dollars. Used jetliner about 120 million + another million for retrofitting for remote control. I'll need about 40 acres in the Mohave desert too - should be fairly cheap. When will you wire the money? I can get started right away.

Why do you need 40 floors to recreate the sag one floor truss? Why couldn't NIST do it?

If you look in this subforum you will find a Mackey in his hardfire thread point to a controlled test of smashing a jet into a concrete wall. How much did that cost? Was it to get to the bottom of 3,000 dead? I don't think so.
 
You want to see a global collapse, son. Nothing else will do. I can give you that in a demonstration that will be a great IMAX film. You might even recover some of your costs that way.

How about it?

You want proof, or don't you?

Engineers are standing by.
 
You want to see a global collapse, son. Nothing else will do. I can give you that in a demonstration that will be a great IMAX film. You might even recover some of your costs that way.

How about it?

You want proof, or don't you?

Engineers are standing by.

Yes I want proof. I just don't think that someone fantasizing about being the Trashcan Man is going to get it for me.

Is that it? I can't pay for it so that makes you right in what you believe?

I think it's become real easy for the likes of you to stand by.
 
Computers! your soaking in it!

http://www.fpemag.com/_pdf/archives/FPE_WINTER_2002.pdf

scroll down to page 23

Well if its good enough for Fire Engineering it will be good enough for HI surely.
Is that it? I can't pay for it so that makes you right in what you believe?

So HI you asked about progression to global collapse, you asked about a recreation with money as no barrier, and you have your answer. Now you complain that money is an barrier? It was your idea furchissake!
 
Last edited:
Why do you need 40 floors to recreate the sag one floor truss?
You do not, but as you have stated, you require a recreation of a full collapse. It would be silly to only build one floor to try and illustrate something which is almost by defintion, multi-floor.

Homeland Insurgency said:
Why couldn't NIST do it?
They did not have access to any facility large enough. Their tests however did show truss sagging even with half length trusses and full fire protection.

Homeland Insurgency said:
If you look in this subforum you will find a Mackey in his hardfire thread point to a controlled test of smashing a jet into a concrete wall. How much did that cost? Was it to get to the bottom of 3,000 dead? I don't think so.
How many variables were involved? Only one relatively significant unknown, the velocity. That was measured.

Attempting to recreate the WTC collapses is several orders of magnitude more complex. It relies much on recreation and simulation, and while even a layman like me could probably build you a truss sagging model, ensuring it replicated the towers exactly is much more difficult.
 
You do not, but as you have stated, you require a recreation of a full collapse. It would be silly to only build one floor to try and illustrate something which is almost by defintion, multi-floor.
Exactly. Reproducing fire and damage effects on one floor wouldn't lead to collapse in any of the models I've seen.

They did not have access to any facility large enough. Their tests however did show truss sagging even with half length trusses and full fire protection.
That's right: they were establishing baselines, which had never been done by fire testing of intact truss samples before the towers were built. BTW, the restrained sample that was insulated most like the tower trusses failed to achieve its fire rating.

Anyway, the problem may be much more complex than simply heating trusses until they sag. Bazant says,
It was hypothesized that the lateral bowing of perimeter columns was caused mainly by a horizontal pull from steel trusses sagging because of differential thermal expansion. However, this hypothesis is not credible. As simple calculations show, the temperature difference between the lower and upper flanges of a floor truss would have to exceed 1,000° C to produce a curvature that would shorten the span of a sagging floor truss by 52 in. The differential thermal expansion must have been only a secondary triggering factor, which created a small initial imperfection in the overloaded columns, to be subsequently drastically magnified by creep buckling.
NIST's global models did take creep buckling into account, but apparently predicted less than Bazant believes existed. Of course, this was not tested when the truss samples were cooked.

So, to build a full-scale, furnished, multistory reconstruction of the tower impact and main fire floors, with proper live and dead loads, with structural damage, fireproofing damage, ventilation, and fuel and debris distribution simulated, fully sensored, and to have to rebuild the structure and re-furnish and re-damage it for each scenario run, as was done with the computer models, all to simulate events that are, to say the least, extremely rare? No.

What would be more interesting, more feasible, and more relevant to other buildings, would be to build a reduced-scale multistory model to see if claims of the intact buildings' vulnerability to fire, as made by Arup, U. Edinburgh, and Dr. Quintiere, might be correct.
 
Last edited:
I have HI on Ignore and it's hard for me to judge the seriousness of this thread, but I should point out for the 20th time that the floor sag leading to collapse has already been demonstrated, physically, in subscale.

Including scaling the combustibles and the actual strength of the Towers. And matching the time to collapse. Done on a strict budget with student labor.

Read the paper for yourself: Ming Wang, Peter Chang, James Quintiere, and Andre Marshall, "Scale Modeling of the 96th Floor of World Trade Center Tower 1," Journal of Engineering Mechanics, American Society of Civil Engineers, Vol. 21, No. 6, pages 414-421, November/December 2007.

You're welcome.
 
Exactly. Reproducing fire and damage effects on one floor wouldn't lead to collapse in any of the models I've seen.

That's right: they were establishing baselines, which had never been done by fire testing of intact truss samples before the towers were built. BTW, the restrained sample that was insulated most like the tower trusses failed to achieve its fire rating.

Anyway, the problem may be much more complex than simply heating trusses until they sag. Bazant says,
NIST's global models did take creep buckling into account, but apparently predicted less than Bazant believes existed. Of course, this was not tested when the truss samples were cooked.

So, to build a full-scale, furnished, multistory reconstruction of the tower impact and main fire floors, with proper live and dead loads, with structural damage, fireproofing damage, ventilation, and fuel and debris distribution simulated, fully sensored, and to have to rebuild the structure and re-furnish and re-damage it for each scenario run, as was done with the computer models, all to simulate events that are, to say the least, extremely rare? No.

What would be more interesting, more feasible, and more relevant to other buildings, would be to build a reduced-scale multistory model to see if claims of the intact buildings' vulnerability to fire, as made by Arup, U. Edinburgh, and Dr. Quintiere, might be correct.

HI believes that a single full scale floor test would suffice. Even at that though one would have to do the test several times to account for variables such as air supply, rubblization of contents, quantity of combustibles, and the quantity of accellerant used. Then that would give you a good idea of the sag due to fire when there is fire on one floor.
To determine the effect of multi-floor fires one needs to build at least an 8 floor (6 with fires and one above and below that are not), do the test several times accounting for the above variables on each floor as well as the location of the initial fires on each floor. Then one will have a good idea of the effect of a multi level fire mimicing what occured in the towers.

Now HI also wants to know how a local progressive collapse progressed to a global collapse. Now one has to do the above multi floor tests and construct and load the top floor to mimic the effect of the hat truss and the mass of the floors above the initial collapse of the towers, adjust for variables in impact damage.

Oops, that only shows initail collapse. better to construct another ten or so stories below the fire levels to see if one gets a vertical gloabal collapse and once again you have to run the re-creation several times accounting for variables.

So the estimated $400M for construction seems a little shy to me.
 
HI believes that a single full scale floor test would suffice. Even at that though one would have to do the test several times to account for variables such as air supply, rubblization of contents, quantity of combustibles, and the quantity of accellerant used. Then that would give you a good idea of the sag due to fire when there is fire on one floor.
To determine the effect of multi-floor fires one needs to build at least an 8 floor (6 with fires and one above and below that are not), do the test several times accounting for the above variables on each floor as well as the location of the initial fires on each floor. Then one will have a good idea of the effect of a multi level fire mimicing what occured in the towers.

Now HI also wants to know how a local progressive collapse progressed to a global collapse. Now one has to do the above multi floor tests and construct and load the top floor to mimic the effect of the hat truss and the mass of the floors above the initial collapse of the towers, adjust for variables in impact damage.

Oops, that only shows initail collapse. better to construct another ten or so stories below the fire levels to see if one gets a vertical gloabal collapse and once again you have to run the re-creation several times accounting for variables.

So the estimated $400M for construction seems a little shy to me.

As opposed to the relatively small sum of money it would take for the TM to do a test with thermite cutting horizontally through a steel column. Of course, a full scale test is more likely to happen than the TM to actually try and prove one of their pet theories.
 
...
So the estimated $400M for construction seems a little shy to me.

As we can cut many corners like not installing wiring, actual elevators, real furniture, etc. I would simulate office contents with stacks of old pallets, etc. I believe I could make it for that price. And the steel all gets recycled at the end and I figured that value in too.
 
I note in passing that Roundhead has reappeared elsewhere and is citing the "no damage" line but avoids this thread like the plague. Draw your own conclusions. I know I have.
 
An authority on tall buildings that mislay the floorplan halvway up, and then continiune with a different one.:confused:

:D
 
It was the boss' idea, don't blame me. And the client liked it. Always more of a Mies man myself.....
 
Excuses are cheap, mislay the drawings and just call the result call the result "modern":D

I see, perhaps client or boss had visited easter island before commisionings the building. :D

MiesToo flimsy for my taste
 
A minor correction: the bomb on the B2 parking garage level blew a large hole through that floor and the one above (B1), and a small hole in the concourse level two floors above. Part of B1 and B2 then fell to the B5 refrigeration plant, but there were no intervening floors: from B5 to B2 was a 3-story-tall open space.

And even though it didn't destroy any columns it did almost bring the tower down. But for reasons that I doubt any truther could understand.
 
As opposed to the relatively small sum of money it would take for the TM to do a test with thermite cutting horizontally through a steel column. Of course, a full scale test is more likely to happen than the TM to actually try and prove one of their pet theories.

They tried it with the "truth burn" experiment if you recall. The guy wanted to cut a column horizontally in half, but couldn't figure out how.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom