How much longer will Israel exist?

[gdnp]

My hope is that that within 50 years or so most states have become secular democracies as more and more people realize that it's pointless to die for a God that doesn't exist and therefore can't give you eternal life, 40 virgins, or anything else. At which point Jewish and Arab will become cultural divisions not worth dying for. 50 years may be overly optomistic, I know, but we can but hope.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Not any time soon. Israel will continue to serve up ****-sandwiches to their prison-camped neighbors and expect that somehow things will be all right.

 

[Thunder]

I'm not really surprised that there are so many here rooting to the end of Israel as a Jewish state. If the wishes of those on this forum were come to pass, the Jews will again be at the mercy of their loving Arab brethren. ).

Wrong.

I wish to see Israel become a true democracy, where minority rights are fully respected. The West Bank and East Jerusalem and Gaza will become the new Palestine.

With this, Israel will continue to exist for a long time.

But if it continues on its present course, Israel will be just a memory in 50 years.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I think Israel will change their ways. As the demographics shift more and more against them, they will be forced to, unless they can foment a crisis that justifies mass deportations. This time, it will be more difficult to claim that the Muslims left under their own volition.

Although it's clear that many ordinary Israelis would like to see Israel change it's ways I foresee the latter happening. The powers that be don't work for the people they work for their own agendas.

I predict there'll be some big incident that will cause Israel to justify taking the lot and demolishing the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque. That's what is being worked up to.

Iran will be weakened first though. The nonsense about Nukes is the excuse for this.

Israel knows it can't take the Temple Mount until Islam is sufficiently weakened

It seems to me the greatest threat to Israel is non-violent protest and passive resistance. They can justify brutality against terrorists and stone-throwers, but would have a much harder time suppressing peaceful marches and sit-ins.

Unfortunately those innocent peaceful Palestinians are getting slaughtered anyway.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I'm not really surprised that there are so many here rooting to the end of Israel as a Jewish state. If the wishes of those on this forum were come to pass, the Jews will again be at the mercy of their loving Arab brethren.

That is quite clearly nonsense. This forum is not only the home of a significant number of Zionist Apologists the poll above shows 9 voting for Israel lasting forever against 4 voting that it will end in 50 years.


Besides the poll isn't asking what people want to happen to Israel, it's asking what people think will happen to Israel.

Your statement above is complete nonsense.

So what will the alternative be once Jews become a minority in their own country? A strict Islamic nation like Yemen/Saudi Arabia or more liberal like the UAE? Will those in this forum be rooting for a great 'improvement' over the current state of affairs to that of Sharia law? Will the 'neo-Palestine' employ the same segregation of expats as seen in Saudi Arabia?

I'm sure before this 50 year endgame scenario for Israel will come to pass, that the racial segregation seen in France with their African/Asian 'citiés' and the Turkish/Moroccan divide in both the Netherlands and Germany will cause similar regulations that go against their once liberal views of multi-culturalism, which is a trend that we are seeing more and more.

Even more 'yawn' dilution

 

[ddt]

I'm not really surprised that there are so many here rooting to the end of Israel as a Jewish state. If the wishes of those on this forum were come to pass, the Jews will again be at the mercy of their loving Arab brethren.

As I write this, only 30% predict that Israel will disappear. I can't say I recognize names among those who would be suspect of rooting for Israel's end - more cynics and pessimists. Hell, TFT predicted that Israel will remain a Jewish state and throw out the Arabs!

I'm sure before this 50 year endgame scenario for Israel will come to pass, that the racial segregation seen in France with their African/Asian 'citiés' and the Turkish/Moroccan divide in both the Netherlands and Germany will cause similar regulations that go against their once liberal views of multi-culturalism, which is a trend that we are seeing more and more.

Speaking for my own country: studies indicate that the Moroccan and Turkish immigrants do make significant progress in integration. The problem is that some of the "Dutch" (*) seem to expect they integrate even faster. Don't forget they had to come from a long way: those who immigrated in the 1960s and 1970s were mostly uneducated and illiterate. Give it another generation and we hardly mention integration problems.

(*) quotes because the current (grand)children of those immigrants are Dutch too, of course.

All that is needed is the push by the previous majority at the threat of them becoming a minority. Multi-culturalism is all fine and dandy as a country's short-sighted tourist attraction, but do people readily accept the long-term consequences as a shift in demographics finally takes hold?

That demographic shift is vastly overblown. The (former) non-European immigrants number 5-7% in all western European countries.

If we're going to pursue this OT discussion, we should start a new thread.

As for the OP of this thread, I agree with Lionking that Parky's limited choices is nothing more than another smear campaign (although Lionking did only state something along the lines of limited choices....took it a bit further).

I agree with the limited: there could have been some more options. I don't agree with the smear campaign. From parky's posting history, I read he's genuinely interested in Israel's survival, but upset about their treatment of the Palestinians.

 

[FireGarden]

I'm sure before this 50 year endgame scenario for Israel will come to pass, that the racial segregation seen in France with their African/Asian 'citiés' and the Turkish/Moroccan divide in both the Netherlands and Germany will cause similar regulations that go against their once liberal views of multi-culturalism, which is a trend that we are seeing more and more.

In Israel it is becoming more common for Arabs to move into Jewish areas. Ironicly, one of the driving forces is the lack of provision given to expand Arab communities. Israel is getting more integrated.

What do you think of that trend?

All that is needed is the push by the previous majority at the threat of them becoming a minority. Multi-culturalism is all fine and dandy as a country's short-sighted tourist attraction, but do people readily accept the long-term consequences as a shift in demographics finally takes hold?

The THREAT of becoming a minority?
I can't say I feel threatened by that at all -- I already am a member of a minority. And doing well in Britain.

Who are you hoping will take charge and steer Britain/Europe into less naive waters? Do you suggest I vote for the BNP?

A bit off-topic: let me present another peaceful Palestinian activist: Shawan Jabarin.

Thanks. I'd not heard of him.

I contemplated starting another thread about it when it was in the Dutch news, two weeks ago, but with the promulgation of I/P threads here...

There are, no doubt, those who would thank you for that...

 

[bigjelmapro]

In Israel it is becoming more common for Arabs to move into Jewish areas. Ironicly, one of the driving forces is the lack of provision given to expand Arab communities. Israel is getting more integrated.

What do you think of that trend?

I have no qualms about living in a multi-cultural society, as I do live in one currently, with Arabs as neighbors, and have done so in all of the 7 countries I've lived in, spanning 4 continents thus far. Only real issues I've ever had with my Jewish background was in Hingham, MA, but apart from that, smooth sailing.

The THREAT of becoming a minority?
I can't say I feel threatened by that at all -- I already am a member of a minority. And doing well in Britain.

Who are you hoping will take charge and steer Britain/Europe into less naive waters? Do you suggest I vote for the BNP?

If BNP gets the majority vote in the UK, there would be this capability for drastic transition in government practice that I fear might be the worst case scenario in Israel over the next several decades. I'm not one that easily gives in to fear-mongering and neither am I a pessimist, but you do have to realize that this possible threat exists. All that is needed is a catalyst or a succession of catalysts for this change to occur.

I am weighing all my options here. I do think that if Jews were to become a minority in their own country, a gradual transition would occur to that seen in Lebanon over the last 2+ decades, and then when there is an even greater imbalance of Arab Muslims to that of Jews in Israel, an overbearing Islamic government that would simply vote Israel out of existence.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Wrong.

I wish to see Israel become a true democracy, where minority rights are fully respected. The West Bank and East Jerusalem and Gaza will become the new Palestine.

With this, Israel will continue to exist for a long time.

But if it continues on its present course, Israel will be just a memory in 50 years.

Firstly, I never stated all those on this forum have these wishes.

As the case with you, either you lack the ability for clarity or have this multiple personality disorder when you convey your ideas.

E.g.

I predict that if they do not change their ways, and abandon state-sanctioned racism against Arabs and leave the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish state.

Judging from the other threads you've authored that rely on false pretenses (where isolated cases of prejudice is seen as institutionalized and government regulated racism/etc.), the indication you've given here is that you side with the possibility of Israel ceasing to exist as a Jewish nation, as well as ethnically cleansing the West bank of Jews (as if this was the case before in the beginning 20th century).

So, for the record, can you state how you think this two-state solution would come into being clearly.

 

[bigjelmapro]

As I write this, only 30% predict that Israel will disappear. I can't say I recognize names among those who would be suspect of rooting for Israel's end - more cynics and pessimists. Hell, TFT predicted that Israel will remain a Jewish state and throw out the Arabs!

In regards to the last statement you made, the limited choice has led to those responding to this thread to not voting at all, which includes me.

TFT is a pessimist and a circus side-show....we all know that

Speaking for my own country: studies indicate that the Moroccan and Turkish immigrants do make significant progress in integration. The problem is that some of the "Dutch" (*) seem to expect they integrate even faster. Don't forget they had to come from a long way: those who immigrated in the 1960s and 1970s were mostly uneducated and illiterate. Give it another generation and we hardly mention integration problems.

Also speaking for the Dutch, since I am Dutch albeit, lived most of my life outside of Holland.

Integration has occurred to various degrees, with the younger age groups integrating better than the older ones, as seen with immigrants in most countries. There are quite a number of studies that indicate that immigrants from Muslim majority countries integrate better in the US than in European countries as well. The issue here is will these younger groups be more inclined to become fundamentalists and refuse to integrate to Western ideals.

That demographic shift is vastly overblown. The (former) non-European immigrants number 5-7% in all western European countries.

If we're going to pursue this OT discussion, we should start a new thread.

There probably is already a thread about this.

Not talking about the sum of the Western European countries, but countries on a country-to-country basis, e.g. Belgium, France, the Netherlands, and Germany. In Holland alone, in the next 20 years, the majority of babies born will be of non-Dutch descent. So not vastly overblown. There will be a gradual change in demographics, its a matter of when.

 

[FireGarden]

If BNP gets the majority vote in the UK, there would be this capability for drastic transition in government practice that I fear might be the worst case scenario in Israel over the next several decades. I'm not one that easily gives in to fear-mongering and neither am I a pessimist, but you do have to realize that this possible threat exists. All that is needed is a catalyst or a succession of catalysts for this change to occur.

It's possible it could happen. But it could happen in Israel too. Some say it is happening, citing Lieberman's success. I would honestly dread Nick Griffin getting that kind of vote in elections. Foreign Minister? Let's hope not. Egypt threatens to ignore Lieberman if he does become FM:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-to-ignore-new-Israeli-foreign-minister.html

Is Lieberman's Israel the kind of safety net you want? And it's pretty much the topic of the thread: the road Israel is going down is one which makes it harder and harder for other nations to support it. Olmert said so himself not so long ago: A two-state solution or Israel is done-for
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929439.html

You ask Parky how he thinks a two-state solution can come about. I have to say that I honestly can't see how. The clock is ticking and there doesn't seem to be a political choice in Israel which will do the only thing which can save Israel: grant the Palestinians a sovereign, independent state. I even think that Olmert really wanted to do it, but just simply couldn't.

I am weighing all my options here. I do think that if Jews were to become a minority in their own country, a gradual transition would occur to that seen in Lebanon over the last 2+ decades, and then when there is an even greater imbalance of Arab Muslims to that of Jews in Israel, an overbearing Islamic government that would simply vote Israel out of existence.

What would you be willing to see done to maintain a Jewish majority in Israel?


The system in Lebanon is damned stupid. It sets in stone divisions between groups and encourages factions to form along religious lines. It's way past time they changed to a proper democracy where the religion of president/PM etc isn't decided by constitution.

Yes, I know. Easier said than done.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Firstly, I never stated all those on this forum have these wishes.

Really? You said....

"I'm not really surprised that there are so many here rooting to the end of Israel as a Jewish state."

As the case with you, either you lack the ability for clarity or have this multiple personality disorder when you convey your ideas.

I find parky very clear in his views.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

In regards to the last statement you made, the limited choice has led to those responding to this thread to not voting at all, which includes me.

TFT is a pessimist and a circus side-show....we all know that

I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist.

 

[Klimax]

My vote:50 years.But I would add "unless both sides changes their way" or "entire land will be destroyed".Does not matter by what-classical bombs,nuclear,biological/chemical or future antimatter.

Third would be cleaned by neutron bombs.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Really? You said....

"I'm not really surprised that there are so many here rooting to the end of Israel as a Jewish state."

Doesn't imply all. Otherwise, take some extra English courses to understand this concept.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Israel has the power. They have the land.

You're forgetting they also have atomic weaponry.

Why do you think noone has been stupid enough to invade them since they last spanked the Arab nations?

 

[ddt]

You're forgetting they also have atomic weaponry.

Why do you think noone has been stupid enough to invade them since they last spanked the Arab nations?

I thought an "invasion" by Hezbollah was the reason for the Lebanon war of 2006?

And in 1973, Israel already had atomic weapons. Didn't stop the Arab nations from attacking.