Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[joobz]

What exactly did they witness in their vision?

Read thier own written testimony.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the Author and Proprietor of this work, has shewn unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shewn unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

 

[joobz]

Are you suggesting that accounts by close associates or disciples should be disregarded?

I'm starting to think that DOC doesn't feel witnesses are reliable sourcee for incredible events.

Just because people saw elvis, doesn't mean elvis is still alive.
Just becuase people say they saw the gold plates, doesn't mean that the plates existed.
And JUST because someone wrote that OTHER PEOPLE saw Jesus rise from the dead, doesn't mean it happened.

 

[cj.23]

Why don't you go pick up a nice Book of Mormon and read it for yourself?

I think it's an interesting read. "Like a dish". But then I have a considerable library of Mormon theological works - I'm not likely to ever be a member of the LDS, but I find their doctrines interesting and history more so. No harm in reading any book to my mind - indeed the more the merrier!

I've not been following the thread for a couple of weeks - anything new?

cj x

 

[joobz]

I've not been following the thread for a couple of weeks - anything new?

Except for DOC claiming the mormons a cult (because they're secretive), nope.

In Religious circles, cult seems to be the preferred label for " the competition".

 

[FSM]

(DERAIL:

for DOC-- http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137553&page=4

See post #151. But don't let it go to your head. I still disagree with just about everything you write. )

 

[paximperium]

I think it's an interesting read. "Like a dish". But then I have a considerable library of Mormon theological works - I'm not likely to ever be a member of the LDS, but I find their doctrines interesting and history more so. No harm in reading any book to my mind - indeed the more the merrier!

Sure beats reading Dianetics.

I've not been following the thread for a couple of weeks - anything new?

Unfortunately not. You can jump in anytime to correct DOC's ignorance about the Bible, it may do him good to hear from a theist who is actually educated about the issues.

 

[DOC]

I'm starting to think that DOC doesn't feel witnesses are reliable sourcee for incredible events.

Depends on the witnesses. An intellectual like Paul the apostle, who at one time persecuted Christians makes a pretty good witness. On the other hand here is some info about Oliver Cowdery, one of the 3 witnesses who supposedly witnessed the plates of Mormon founder Joseph Smith.

From Wiki's article on the 3 Mormon witnesses

Like {Joseph}Smith, who was a distant relative, Cowdery was also a treasure hunter who had used a divining rod in his youth. Cowdery asked questions of the rod; if it moved, the answer was yes, if not, no. [6] Cowdery also told Smith that he had seen the Golden Plates in a vision before the two ever met.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses#Oliver_Cowdery

Also earlier I talked about how any blacksmith could of made plates. A few websites said Cowdery was a blacksmith by trade.

 

[DOC]

Here is some info on another Mormon witness of the Joseph Smith plates.

From Wiki's article on Martin Harris:

Martin Harris was a respected farmer in the Palmyra area who had changed his religion at least five times before he became a Mormon.[19] A biographer wrote that his "imagination was excitable and fecund." One letter says that Harris thought that a candle sputtering was the work of the devil[20] and that he had met Jesus in the shape of a deer and walked and talked with him for two or three miles.[21] The local Presbyterian minister called him "a visionary fanatic."[22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses#Martin_Harris

 

[Elizabeth I]

Also earlier I talked about how any blacksmith could of made plates.

And anybody...especially maybe somebody on a little bit of a power kick?...could have made up a story about somebody rising from the dead.

 

[joobz]

Depends on the witnesses. An intellectual like Paul the apostle, who at one time persecuted Christians makes a pretty good witness. On the other hand here is some info about Oliver Cowdery, one of the 3 witnesses who supposedly witnessed the plates of Mormon founder Joseph Smith.

From Wiki's article on the 3 Mormon witnesses

Like {Joseph}Smith, who was a distant relative, Cowdery was also a treasure hunter who had used a divining rod in his youth. Cowdery asked questions of the rod; if it moved, the answer was yes, if not, no. [6] Cowdery also told Smith that he had seen the Golden Plates in a vision before the two ever met.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses#Oliver_Cowdery

Also earlier I talked about how any blacksmith could of made plates. A few websites said Cowdery was a blacksmith by trade.

See DOC? See how shaky and unreliable witnesses are. It could also be said that Paul could have completely lied (assuming he is the actual Paul the apostle). If he was such an intellectual, you wouldn't know if he said the truth or not.

 

[joobz]

Here is some info on another Mormon witness of the Joseph Smith plates.

From Wiki's article on Martin Harris:

Martin Harris was a respected farmer in the Palmyra area who had changed his religion at least five times before he became a Mormon.[19] A biographer wrote that his "imagination was excitable and fecund." One letter says that Harris thought that a candle sputtering was the work of the devil[20] and that he had met Jesus in the shape of a deer and walked and talked with him for two or three miles.[21] The local Presbyterian minister called him "a visionary fanatic."[22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses#Martin_Harris

How do you know he didn't meet Jesus? Why is that impossible, but jesus rising from the dead isn't?

You seem to be trying very hard to discredit the witnesses. Why are you so invested. Are you worried about the fact that your whole religion is built upon a secretive cult leader?

 

[Lothian]

Harris thought that he had met Jesus in the shape of a deer and walked and talked with him for two or three miles[/b].[21] The local Presbyterian minister called him "a visionary fanatic."]

What is the problem ?

Are people who see visions liars? [Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night]

Do you not believe jesus can appear in a vision? [Numbers 12:6 If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.]

Or are visions supposed to be a secret [Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man]

 

[six7s]

An intellectual like Paul the apostle, who at one time persecuted Christians makes a pretty good witness.

Serious question:

why is it that Paul 'makes a pretty good witness'? ​

 

[DOC]

Serious question:

why is it that Paul 'makes a pretty good witness'? ​

Well Paul, who was going to Damascus to "persecute" Christians did claim to personally witness the presence of Jesus on the way.

And any man who has the genius to write letters to other people that will end up being a very large and very important part of the greatest selling book in the history of the world deserves to be considered a good witness. Especially considering he was against Christianity at one time.

When compared to Cowdery and Harris of Mormonism; Paul makes an outstanding witness.

 

[paximperium]

Well Paul, who was going to Damascus to "persecute" Christians did claim to personally witness the presence of Jesus on the way.

And any man who has the genius to write letters to other people that will end up being a very large and very important part of the greatest selling book in the history of the world deserves to be considered a good witness. Especially considering he was against Christianity at one time.

When compared to Cowdery and Harris of Mormonism; Paul makes an outstanding witness.

That was the best non-answer ever.

Translation: "Paul is a good witness because what he claims is in the Bible while those others aren't."

 

[DOC]

How do you know he didn't meet Jesus? Why is that impossible, but jesus rising from the dead isn't?

It's not impossible, but seems very unlikely considering Mormonism in certain ways goes against the teachings of Jesus himself. For example Jesus' teachings and implications on hell and those of Mormonism are very different. The Law of Non-contradiction prevents both from being right.

 

[paximperium]

It's not impossible, but seems very unlikely considering Mormonism in certain ways goes against the teachings of Jesus himself.

Are you sure about that? You've stated you've never read any Mormon texts.

For example Jesus' teachings and implications on hell and those of Mormonism are very different. The Law of Non-contradiction prevents both from being right.

Exactly. Mormonism claims that they are the continuation, a new revision of Christianity similar to how Christian claim that they are a new and improved version of Judaism.

So how do you know that Mormonism isn't right?

 

[DOC]

What is the problem ?

Are people who see visions liars? [Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night]

No

Do you not believe jesus can appear in a vision? [Numbers 12:6 If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.]

Yes

Or are visions supposed to be a secret [Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man]

I've already talked about the reason for this

 

[Hokulele]

Well Paul, who was going to Damascus to "persecute" Christians did claim to personally witness the presence of Jesus on the way.

Then why are the accounts by Luke in Acts different from Paul's own words?

ETA: And don't forget, many of the epistles are commonly considered to be forgeries.

 

[DOC]

Are you sure about that? You've stated you've never read any Mormon texts.

Which post did I state this?

Exactly. Mormonism claims that they are the continuation, a new revision of Christianity similar to how Christian claim that they are a new and improved version of Judaism.

So how do you know that Mormonism isn't right?

As I said, Christ's and Mormonism concept of hell is different. Also Christianity's concept of God (the father) and the Mormon's concept is extremely different. Personally, after the reading I"ve done on Mormonism, I agree with that Dutch investigator who studied them for years, and said Joseph Smith was a psychopath, who used religion {either consciously or unconsciously } for his own fanatical desires and delusions of grandeur. Read what I said earlier about Cowdery and Harris. These are the type of people that attached themselves to Smith.

But even the bible predicted people like Smith when it says there will come false prophets who will deceive many. But at least a big part of Mormonism is Christ so at least that's better than atheism in my opinion.