So Why Is The Gospel Still An Offense?

kurious_kathy said:
There is all kinds of evidence in history but Satan has worked very hard at deceiving people to it. Have you read the historical documents by Josephus? That's one but there are many more. I would like to share these articles with you on Charlies website and have you take an honest peek and listen to the audio too then get back to me on your opinion on a few things. http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=161&Itemid=128
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Josephus' documents were doctored centuries later.
 
kurious_kathy said:
Who told you Mary was born without sin? That's a big fat lie that Catholics were taught but it's not biblical at all. She knew she was a sinner like everyone else who needed a Savior.

And if you ask me you have bought a big lie. Christianity is the one true religion but it's not about religion but that we can have a realtionship with God through Christ.
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She was conceived without sin (that is, sex). The immaculate conception refers to her conception and not Jesus's.
 
Before we get to page 2 on this train wreck, let me point out that everything posted in this thread thus far by both kathy and others was covered in the monstrous fail that was the same topic thread kathy started that I linked to.

Can we not repeat the same stupid conversation? Please?
 
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Ducky said:
Let's head this one off before it becomes the trainwreck the last thread you posted on this was.

You're assuming things about others and their beliefs in an attempt to paint your faith as persecuted somehow. It's a bit patronizing of you to think we wouldn't notice that.
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I am defending the true faith and I have made this observation over the years that many are not looking at the man on the cross enough.
 
LostAngeles said:
She was conceived without sin (that is, sex). The immaculate conception refers to her conception and not Jesus's.
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Jesus was conceived without sin, but not Mary. Mary was chosen to be The mother of Jesus, but her parents were just like everyone elses and Mary was born a sinner like everyone else. Don't you see how the Catholic doctrine has twisted it? Mary is NOT coredeptrous with Christ. It is Jesus alone who saves, not Mary!
 
kurious_kathy said:
I am defending the true faith and I have made this observation over the years that many are not looking at the man on the cross enough.
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I have.

Yeshua of Nazerath was a guy with some pretty nice ideas about loving one another. He amassed a following that posed a threat to the current situation and was tortured and executed in an incredibly brutal fashion. His followers then managed to spread their new religion by means of some damned good PR.

I like the basic idea of, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I think that if more people endeavored to do this, the world would be a better place.

I don't care about Hell or Heaven. I care about making this world a better place.

Buried underneath a pile of silk skirts exists some proof that I've done exactly that. I have cards made by the kids I work with at a youth center expressing their gratitude and affection for being there for them, for encouraging them, for giving a damn. I've done something. It may be small, it may even be fleeting, but I've done something.

God can condemn me for being an agnostic. He can condemn me for being sexually attracted to both genders. He can condemn me for doing scientific stuff. He can condemn me for blaspheming. He can send me to burn for an eternity in a lake of fire while my organs are twisted and mutilated. I don't care.

I don't care if he takes me up to Heaven to sing his praises and hosannas for eternity either.

I care about this world being better someday, even if I never see it.

Somehow, I suspect that's what Yeshua of Nazerath was wanting as well when he gave that commandment.
 
kurious_kathy said:
Is it the message of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that you find offensive?
Or is it the Christians who share the message with you?
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I find it offensive that many Christians feel that I am a lesser person due to my disbelief of their religion. I find it offensive that they pity me for having a dissenting opinion. If we were talking about something such as not believing in gravity or germ theory, I could understand derision on their part, but this is clearly not the same situation.


kurious_kathy said:
Over and over I hear people stating mostly it’s the Christians they find offensive rather than Christ. If you judge Christ by his followers then you are not seeing him right since Jesus was the only sinless being who ever lived.
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It is perfectly acceptable to judge any particular idea by the behavior of it's adherents. As an extreme example, I am perfectly within my rights to judge the organization NAMBLA by the behavior of it's members.

Furthermore, your argument only holds if we first accept the notion of sin as the New Testament defines it, and then only if we accept Jesus to be sinless. Being as we are, ostensibly, talking about atheists and/or agnostics in this discussion, I think it is safe to assume that we accept neither of the preceeding proposals.

I do not hold the morals of Jesus, or of the New Testament, or of the Bible as a whole, to be of much value. Any moral statement of any value found in the Bible, including those of Jesus, can be either found in texts predating the Bible, or are very simply part of the internal moral structure found in any "good" human being.

There are many men and women throughout history whose morals I hold in infinitely higher regard than those of Jesus.


kurious_kathy said:
I also think it best to remember Jesus said it is not the well that need a doctor but the sick so Christians just have gotten to a place where they agree with God and they know they need a Savior then we repent and follw his teachings. Do we do it perfectly no, but we admit our need for forgivess as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If you could truly have the gift of repentance then you would know it’s all true.
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In addition to my first comment above, it is also completely fair to judge an ideology by the success with which it's adherents can follow it's doctrine. While I personally know of many fine examples of people who are kind and generous Christians, it is my position that they are simply inherently good people. I firmly believe that if religion were to be stripped from them, that they would remain just as kind and generous as they are with their religion intact.


kurious_kathy said:
So again I ask if God has made a way of escaping judgment for each of us who would not want to take it? The message of the cross is only foolishness to those who are perishing, but the good news is you still have time to change your mind and receive what Jesus did for you on the cross. He died for all of us so we could be reconciled to God, what’s so offensive about that?
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Again, it is not the message that is offensive, it is the blind assumption that it is fact and that we are somehow inferior for not accepting it as such. I would be equally offended if someone preached the truth of Zeus or Vishnu to me as truth, provided that they preached it to me with a zeal equal to that I see from almost every religious evangelist.

~~ Random
 
Ducky said:
Before we get to page 2 on this train wreck, let me point out that everything posted in this thread thus far by both kathy and others was covered in the monstrous fail that was the same topic thread kathy started that I linked to.

Can we not repeat the same stupid conversation? Please?
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Yeah, but I bet if you pass a train wreck you can't help but have a look.;)
 
Cavemonster said:
We've done this in other threads, but I'd like to see which documents you think confirm the life of Jesus. Can you link to them or at least name them?
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Well I just posted some links on wollery's reply but if you take a look at alwaysbeready.com's website you will be quite blessed to find many documents that you can research yourself. I am so happy to have found Charlie Campbells ministry to refer you to as he was once like many of you, skeptical. I truly think you will like what he has documented to help some of you find more answers.

http://www.garyhabermas.com/books/historicaljesus/historicaljesus.htm#ch9
 
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LostAngeles said:
I like the basic idea of, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I think that if more people endeavored to do this, the world would be a better place.
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As a minor point of order, that idea pre-dates Jesus by several hundred years.
 
Ducky said:
Before we get to page 2 on this train wreck, let me point out that everything posted in this thread thus far by both kathy and others was covered in the monstrous fail that was the same topic thread kathy started that I linked to.

Can we not repeat the same stupid conversation? Please?
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Baby, I just got back. Lemme have a little fun.

Then later, you, me, and the leash...
 
lionking said:
Yeah, but I bet if you pass a train wreck you can't help but have a look.;)
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And if I want to keep looking, years later, I don't want the same train wreck to happen again. I can always go back to the documentation on the old one.
 
kurious_kathy said:
Is it the message of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that you find offensive?
Or is it the Christians who share the message with you?

Over and over I hear people stating mostly it’s the Christians they find offensive rather than Christ. If you judge Christ by his followers then you are not seeing him right since Jesus was the only sinless being who ever lived. I also think it best to remember Jesus said it is not the well that need a doctor but the sick so Christians just have gotten to a place where they agree with God and they know they need a Savior then we repent and follw his teachings. Do we do it perfectly no, but we admit our need for forgivess as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If you could truly have the gift of repentance then you would know it’s all true.

So again I ask if God has made a way of escaping judgment for each of us who would not want to take it? The message of the cross is only foolishness to those who are perishing, but the good news is you still have time to change your mind and receive what Jesus did for you on the cross. He died for all of us so we could be reconciled to God, what’s so offensive about that?
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Would you damn your Soul to Hell for God?
 
Is it the message of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that you find offensive?
Or is it the Christians who share the message with you?

Christians who assume that there is a message, and that they feel the need to tell me about it, in the vain hope that others will agree with them in irrational mental constructs to avoid accepting reality. Or any religion that attempts the same.

Over and over I hear people stating mostly it’s the Christians they find offensive rather than Christ. If you judge Christ by his followers then you are not seeing him right since Jesus was the only sinless being who ever lived.

The second sentence does not follow logically as you have shifted the goalposts. If people have a problem with christians that does not imply a judgement of jesus. Sin is also a manmade construct. I dont see guilty turtles anywhere.

I also think it best to remember Jesus said it is not the well that need a doctor but the sick so Christians just have gotten to a place where they agree with God and they know they need a Savior then we repent and follw his teachings. Do we do it perfectly no, but we admit our need for forgivess as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If you could truly have the gift of repentance then you would know it’s all true.

We will know it is true when we have evidence to support that hypothesis, remember this is a skeptics forum.

So again I ask if God has made a way of escaping judgment for each of us who would not want to take it? The message of the cross is only foolishness to those who are perishing, but the good news is you still have time to change your mind and receive what Jesus did for you on the cross. He died for all of us so we could be reconciled to God, what’s so offensive about that?

You have shifted the goalposts a second time. You are assuming the reality of god, that we would accept that without proof, that jesus was divine, and that he had a message.

I ask you to provide evidence in support of your stance or at least a logical argument. Your evangelistic posting style only discredits your reputation.
 
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LostAngeles said:
I have.

Yeshua of Nazerath was a guy with some pretty nice ideas about loving one another. He amassed a following that posed a threat to the current situation and was tortured and executed in an incredibly brutal fashion. His followers then managed to spread their new religion by means of some damned good PR.

I like the basic idea of, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I think that if more people endeavored to do this, the world would be a better place.

I don't care about Hell or Heaven. I care about making this world a better place.

Buried underneath a pile of silk skirts exists some proof that I've done exactly that. I have cards made by the kids I work with at a youth center expressing their gratitude and affection for being there for them, for encouraging them, for giving a damn. I've done something. It may be small, it may even be fleeting, but I've done something.

God can condemn me for being an agnostic. He can condemn me for being sexually attracted to both genders. He can condemn me for doing scientific stuff. He can condemn me for blaspheming. He can send me to burn for an eternity in a lake of fire while my organs are twisted and mutilated. I don't care.

I don't care if he takes me up to Heaven to sing his praises and hosannas for eternity either.

I care about this world being better someday, even if I never see it.

Somehow, I suspect that's what Yeshua of Nazerath was wanting as well when he gave that commandment.
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First of all how can a person not beleive in heaven or hell? This makes no sense to me since God planted eternity in our hearts. It's kind of like a salmon swimming up stream but often times they do not make it. Going to heaven should be easy but for some reason it isn't because it takes faith that Jesus is the son of God sent to this earth to save the lost. All who believe in Christ will be saved but since I am on the opposite side as most of you here on jref I just get confounded why it's so hard to believe Jesus is who he claimed to be, the Messiah?

Second it makes my heart glad to know you care about making a difference in the world, everybody needs love and God is the author of it. It's just too bad there aren't more caring people out there taking some time to serve others like you have. I had volunteered at a local pregancy center for 2+ years but do to health issues I have taken a leave but may go back or help when I can. There are lots of troubled teens out there who need hope. The bottom line is Jesus is the one who can truly give us hope and a future as he has promised to make this world new again someday one where there will be no more pain or sorrow. I believe all the worlds sorrows have been rooted in our penatly for sin, that's why we die but Jesus promises new life, why wouldn't you want that? You can really have it better someday if you receive Christ but if you do not you will wish you had because hell is real too and many will send themselves for denying Christ's finished work on the cross. Have you really tried to see Jesus right for yourself?
 
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