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A Question for Heiwa - WTC Safety Factors

Heiwa,

Factor of Safety for a damaged vs. undamaged structure.

I have a chair. It is rated to carry 200 lbs. From experiment, I find it will collapse if I put ~600 lbs on it.

FoS = 3.

Now, I chop off one leg.

Are you claiming that the FoS for my 3 legged chair is now 3/4 x 3 = 2.3?

Are you claiming that my 3 legged chair should be able to carry 450 lbs before it collapses?

Are you claiming that my 3 legged chair should be able to stand up at all?

All of the above is PRECISELY what you are doing when you apply the FoS generated for an intact building to a damaged one.

tom

But I just explained the FoS of a damaged matchbox versus n undamaged ones. FoS = n!

As far as I am concerned match boxes do not have legs!

I appreciate that you rate chairs to carry loads, US citizens getting heavier I am told - big bellows and fat legs, &c, but a four legger is different from a three legger, i.e. 3<4. Or 4>3!

Anyway, I will be on the Hardfire show next week - I wonder who invited me - so I have to test my skis in the slopes before that.
 
Why are you Heiwa blabbering on about "part C crushing part A"?
The collapses didn't happen that way. The floors were broken one at a time.
Are you claiming the upper part couldn't break the first floor below? And after that of course the next, and the next etc.
Eg. the beams didn't get crushed, they just broke apart when the structure broke with the floors. You make it sound as if somebody has claimed that when the upper part hit the whole lower structure suddenly failed. Which of course didn't happen.

Compare eg. to dominoes. The first doesn't cursh the entire structure, but don goes all the pieces.
 
Any reply Heiwa?

I just repeat myself. A part C of a structure* A (C 1/10th of A) cannot crush down A, when dropping by gravity on A. C will be locally damaged as A (C may even bounce) and no crush down will take place. Quite basic!
This rule apply to any structure at any scale, so you don't have to model it.
If anybody can show me a structure where part C will crush down A of it, she/he will win a prize.

*Just to prove it, I demonstrate this with ship blocks dropped during construction on other blocks, steel modules dropping on other modules, pizza boxes, lemons, sponges, steel beam structures, wedding cakes, WTC 1, sawdust-n-glue cubes, all dropping on themselves, &c. They all behave as I predict. It has nothing to do with FoS of elements in them or similar. It is simply because equal type structures produce equal local damages on one another at collision contact (by gravity or horizontally by other forces - it does not matter). Therefore little C cannot crush big A.
 
Why are you Heiwa blabbering on about "part C crushing part A"?
The collapses didn't happen that way. The floors were broken one at a time.
Are you claiming the upper part couldn't break the first floor below? And after that of course the next, and the next etc.
Eg. the beams didn't get crushed, they just broke apart when the structure broke with the floors. You make it sound as if somebody has claimed that when the upper part hit the whole lower structure suddenly failed. Which of course didn't happen.

Compare eg. to dominoes. The first doesn't cursh the entire structure, but don goes all the pieces.

He knows this, it as been pointed out countless times by countless members. It is simply ignored and to be honest so is the insanity he babbles.
 
I just repeat myself. A part C of a structure* A (C 1/10th of A) cannot crush down A, when dropping by gravity on A. C will be locally damaged as A (C may even bounce) and no crush down will take place. Quite basic!
This rule apply to any structure at any scale, so you don't have to model it.
If anybody can show me a structure where part C will crush down A of it, she/he will win a prize.

*Just to prove it, I demonstrate this with ship blocks dropped during construction on other blocks, steel modules dropping on other modules, pizza boxes, lemons, sponges, steel beam structures, wedding cakes, WTC 1, sawdust-n-glue cubes, all dropping on themselves, &c. They all behave as I predict. It has nothing to do with FoS of elements in them or similar. It is simply because equal type structures produce equal local damages on one another at collision contact (by gravity or horizontally by other forces - it does not matter). Therefore little C cannot crush big A.

Heiwa, as a matter of interest, how significant would it be if Bazant is completely debunked ? What would it mean for the official account of 9/11 ?
 
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So can somebody update me on whether Heiwa has submitted his calculations concerning the FOS of the tower's design without attempting to inject pizza boxes, lemons, pillows, cherries, pepperoni sticks, wedding cakes, &b the like? I gather from what I see, what I'm hoping to expect from him is but a pipe dream...
 
Heiwa, as a matter of interest, how significant would it be if Bazant is completely debunked ? What would it mean for the official account of 9/11 ?

Good questions

Please allow me to repeat them

as a matter of interest, how significant would it be if Bazant is completely debunked ?

What would it mean for the official account of 9/11

Well, Heiwa, how does the ideal scenario as described by Bazant, if proved incorrect impact of the so called "official story”?

I await your expert opinion.
 
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FoS of match box?

1. Put match box on table. Put another match box on table match box until you have put on n match boxes, when table match box is crushed. FoS = n or 1 match box could carry n boxes. n is probably not 3, but you never know. You have to try. Note only table match box is crushed. The other n boxes remain intact.
You don't think your proposed models would behave structurally like the towers and you don't intend to find out, despite that knowledge being easily attained. It isn't me who has to "try," it's you, and you need to do that to avoid making a fool of yourself as you have done here.

Claiming that your models are valid analogs to the towers is a lie. Clear enough?
 
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So can somebody update me on whether Heiwa has submitted his calculations concerning the FOS of the tower's design without attempting to inject pizza boxes, lemons, pillows, cherries, pepperoni sticks, wedding cakes, &b the like? I gather from what I see, what I'm hoping to expect from him is but a pipe dream...
He tried and came up with a number of 3. I've accepted that for the sake of argument and asked him to compare that to the FoS of his proposed models. His reply? "You do it."
 
Modeling Scale using the femur

I just repeat myself. A part C of a structure* A (C 1/10th of A) cannot crush down A, when dropping by gravity on A. C will be locally damaged as A (C may even bounce) and no crush down will take place. Quite basic!
This rule apply to any structure at any scale, so you don't have to model it.
If anybody can show me a structure where part C will crush down A of it, she/he will win a prize.

*Just to prove it, I demonstrate this with ship blocks dropped during construction on other blocks, steel modules dropping on other modules, pizza boxes, lemons, sponges, steel beam structures, wedding cakes, WTC 1, sawdust-n-glue cubes, all dropping on themselves, &c. They all behave as I predict. It has nothing to do with FoS of elements in them or similar. It is simply because equal type structures produce equal local damages on one another at collision contact (by gravity or horizontally by other forces - it does not matter). Therefore little C cannot crush big A.

No, You do not understand the argument of Scaling



http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/VideoLectures/detail/embed01.htm

Scroll ahead to 11:10 in the video above to where the Scaling Argument is addressed in the lecture

Here is the relevant part of the transcript from MIT professor Walter Lewins lecture.
Galileo Galilei asked himself the question: Why are mammals as large as they are and not much larger? He had a very clever reasoning which I've never seen in print.
But it comes down to the fact that he argued that if the mammal becomes too massive that the bones will break and he thought that that was a limiting factor.
Even though I've never seen his reasoning in print I will try to reconstruct it what could have gone through his head.
Here is a mammal.
And this is one of the four legs of the mammal.
And this mammal has a size S.
And what I mean by that is a mouse is yay big and a cat is yay big.
That's what I mean by size--
very crudely defined.
The mass of the mammal is M and this mammal has a thigh bone which we call the femur, which is here.
And the femur of course carries the body, to a large extent.
And let's assume that the femur has a length l and has a thickness d.
Here is a femur.
This is what a femur approximately looks like.
So this will be the length of the femur...
and this will be the thickness, d and this will be the cross-sectional area A.
I'm now going to take you through what we call in physics a scaling argument.
I would argue that the length of the femur must be proportional to the size of the animal.
That's completely plausible.
If an animal is four times larger than another you would need four times longer legs.
And that's all this is saying.
It's very reasonable.
It is also very reasonable that the mass of an animal is proportional to the third power of the size because that's related to its volume.
And so if it's related to the third power of the size it must also be proportional to the third power of the length of the femur because of this relationship.
Okay, that's one.
Now comes the argument.
Pressure on the femur is proportional to the weight of the animal divided by the cross-section A of the femur.
That's what pressure is.
And that is the mass of the animal that's proportional to the mass of the animal divided by d squared because we want the area here, it's proportional to d squared.
Now follow me closely.
If the pressure is higher than a certain level the bones will break.
Therefore, for an animal not to break its bones when the mass goes up by a certain factor let's say a factor of four in order for the bones not to break d squared must also go up by a factor of four.
That's a key argument in the scaling here.
You really have to think that through carefully.
Therefore, I would argue that the mass must be proportional to d squared.
This is the breaking argument.
Now compare these two.
The mass is proportional to the length of the femur to the power three and to the thickness of the femur to the power two.
Therefore, the thickness of the femur to the power two must be proportional to the length l and therefore the thickness of the femur must be proportional to l to the power three-halfs.
A very interesting result.
What is this result telling you? It tells you that if I have two animals and one is ten times larger than the other then S is ten times larger that the lengths of the legs are ten times larger but that the thickness of the femur is 30 times larger because it is l to the power three halves.
If I were to compare a mouse with an elephant an elephant is about a hundred times larger in size so the length of the femur of the elephant would be a hundred times larger than that of a mouse but the thickness of the femur would have to be 1,000 times larger.
And that may have convinced Galileo Galilei that that's the reason why the largest animals are as large as they are.
Because clearly, if you increase the mass there comes a time that the thickness of the bones is the same as the length of the bones.
You're all made of bones and that is biologically not feasible.
And so there is a limit somewhere set by this scaling law.
Well, I wanted to bring this to a test.
After all I brought my grandmother's statement to a test so why not bring Galileo Galilei's statement to a test? And so I went to Harvard where they have a beautiful collection of femurs and I asked them for the femur of a raccoon and a horse.
A raccoon is this big a horse is about four times bigger so the length of the femur of a horse must be about four times the length of the raccoon.
Close.
So I was not surprised.
Then I measured the thickness, and I said to myself, "Aha!" If the length is four times higher then the thickness has to be eight times higher if this holds.
And what I'm going to plot for you you will see that shortly is d divided by l, versus l and that, of course, must be proportional to l to the power one-half.
I bring one l here.
So, if I compare the horse and I compare the raccoon I would argue that the thickness divided by the length of the femur for the horse must be the square root of four, twice as much as that of the raccoon.
And so I was very anxious to plot that, and I did that and I'll show you the result.
Here is my first result.
So we see there, d over l.
I explained to you why I prefer that.
And here you see the length.
You see here the raccoon and you see the horse.
And if you look carefully, then the d over l for the horse is only about one and a half times larger than the raccoon.
Well, I wasn't too disappointed.
One and a half is not two, but it is in the right direction.
The horse clearly has a larger value for d over l than the raccoon.
I realized I needed more data, so I went back to Harvard.
I said, "Look, I need a smaller animal, an opossum maybe maybe a rat, maybe a mouse," and they said, "okay." They gave me three more bones.
They gave me an antelope which is actually a little larger than a raccoon and they gave me an opossum and they gave me a mouse.
Here is the bone of the antelope.
Here is the one of the raccoon.
Here is the one of the opossum.
And now you won't believe this.
This is so wonderful, so romantic.
There is the mouse.
( students laugh ) Isn't that beautiful? Teeny, weeny little mouse? That's only a teeny, weeny little femur.
And there it is.
And I made the plot.
I was very curious what that plot would look like.
And...
here it is.
Whew! I was shocked.
I was really shocked.
Because look--
the horse is 50 times larger in size than the mouse.
The difference in d over l is only a factor of two.
And I expected something more like a factor of seven.
And so, in d over l, where I expect a factor of seven I only see a factor of two.
So I said to myself, "Oh, my goodness. Why didn't I ask them for an elephant?" The real clincher would be the elephant because if that goes way off scale maybe we can still rescue the statement by Galileo Galilei and so I went back and they said "Okay, we'll give you the femur of an elephant."
They also gave me one of a moose, believe it or not.
I think they wanted to get rid of me by that time to be frank with you.
And here is the femur of an elephant.
And I measured it.
The length and the thickness.
And it is very heavy.
It weighs a ton.
I plotted it, I was full of expectation.
I couldn't sleep all night.
And there's the elephant.
There is no evidence whatsoever that d over l is really larger for the elephant than for the mouse.
These vertical bars indicate my uncertainty in measurements of thickness and the horizontal scale, which is a logarithmic scale...
the uncertainty of the length measurements is in the thickness of the red pen so there's no need for me to indicate that any further.
And here you have your measurements in case you want to check them.
And look again at the mouse and look at the elephant.
The mouse has indeed only one centimeter length of the femur and the elephant is, indeed, hundred times longer.
So the first scaling argument that S is proportional to l that is certainly what you would expect because an elephant is about a hundred times larger in size.
But when you go to d over l, you see it's all over.
The d over l for the mouse is really not all that different from the elephant and you would have expected that number to be with the square root of 100 so you expect it to be ten times larger instead of about the same.
So you see here, Anders Bjorkman, "Engineer":rolleyes:. You must hand wave off the Scaling Argument to make any of your "modeling" appear valid. This is all very basic stuff. And If you truly do hold any degree in engineering. You already know this. But because your motives are agenda driven (the US rejection of your hull concept for example) You must play this game to the truther audience of fools, "children", and others who have an agenda driven axe to grind. You have been outed Anders.

What say you "Anders Bjorkman" to the argument of scale MIT professor Walter Lewin presents above?
 
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No, You do not understand the argument of Scaling


What say you "Anders Bjorkman" to the argument of scale MIT professor Walter Lewin presents above?

It does not apply to my axiom "A part C of a structure* A (C 1/10th of A) cannot crush down A, when dropping by gravity on A. C will be locally damaged as A (C may even bounce) and no crush down will take place".

(* defined elsewhere)

A big 400x64x64 m or small 4x0.64x0.64 structure with parts C and A of any kind behaves according this axiom as long as the structure in C and A is the same. I have learnt this from ship collisions. I have seen a 300 m long ship and a 30 m long ship being damaged in separate collisions (gravity force replaced by another, horizontal propulsion force), etc.

So I, Anders Björkman, stand by my statement as described in my articles.
 
Heiwa, as a matter of interest, how significant would it be if Bazant is completely debunked ? What would it mean for the official account of 9/11 ?

Well, I sent an article to the ASCE Journal of Enginering Mechanics about it ... and they still seem to consider what to do. But I do not need ASCE acceptance. In my eyes Bazant and NIST are already completely and scientifically debunked. Now it is a political question. What is politically correct, &c, &c.? I am off skiing.
 
Well, I sent an article to the ASCE Journal of Enginering Mechanics about it ... and they still seem to consider what to do. But I do not need ASCE acceptance. In my eyes Bazant and NIST are already completely and scientifically debunked. Now it is a political question. What is politically correct, &c, &c.? I am off skiing.

Remember when you told me there was a 100% chance that you would get that article published? Is that still your position? If (by if, I mean when) they don't publish you, are they now part of the coverup? I suppose you could always blame me for emailing them about you and your "Heiwa type experiments."
 
Well, I sent an article to the ASCE Journal of Enginering Mechanics about it ... and they still seem to consider what to do. But I do not need ASCE acceptance. In my eyes Bazant and NIST are already completely and scientifically debunked. Now it is a political question. What is politically correct, &c, &c.? I am off skiing.

It sounds like NIST and Bazant are essentially 'dead men walking'. It's not a matter of ''if'.....it's a matter of 'when'.
I hope Obama was passing on a coded message when he mentioned 'science being restored to it's rightful place' (or words to that effect).
 

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