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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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But it's clear that he admits to speaking in parable to confuse his message.
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It's clear to those of us who don't have an emotional need for it to not be true, that is.
 
Lothian said:
I think you are misunderstanding my request. I am not looking for the bible that is most consistent with other versions of the bible. I want to know which one gives the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Which bible leaves out the personal opinions, and parables but instead gives the literal truth, one which doesn’t contradict itself but can be relied upon to tell it as it literally happened.
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No translation of another language is perfect which is why I believe if a verse doesn't seem quite right for some reason then check out a couple of translations. Even I don't just rely on the King James.
 
DOC said:
No translation of another language is perfect which is why I believe if a verse doesn't seem quite right for some reason then check out a couple of translations. Even I don't just rely on the King James.
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Which is why I linked you to a discussion of the original Greek.

DOC said:
But they weren't deemed authentic enough to be put in the Bible. I'm talking about the Bible.
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Actually, it was more complicated than that. There are a number of epistles that are known to be forgeries in the bible (the Timothies, for example). I really do suggest reading a good book concerning the Gnostic Gospels (avoid Pagels' early work, as there were flaws).

Seriously, you really should look more into the history of this religion you purport to follow as it isn't as clear-cut as most American Christians would like to make it seem.
 
DOC said:
Well then list just 2 with the verse.
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This is plainly a bizarre request, considering this whole thing started with a passage in the bible that admits to jesus keeping a secret. You now demand two examples. Well, here.
The wiki article has 4 passage example of it:
Here's 2 of them.

Mark 8:27-30
27And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
28And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
29And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. 30And he charged them that they should tell no man of him
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Jesus kept him being the messiah a secret. Much like how Scientology keeps Xenu a secret.

Luke 8:10
10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand
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Here's Jesus admitting that he explaiins the mysteries to the desciples but hides his message in parables for others.



Really, I only need one. Jesus was a secret keeper, and therefore fits your definition of being cult like.
 
L The Detective said:
DOC, I'm starting to get the feeling that you believe what is written in the Bible is fact!
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DOC made a mistake admitting to what cults are like. He's now attempting to distance christianity from this label. Of course this requires very selective reading of the bible mixed with special pleading.

Just look at what he's argued since this issue has come up:
1.) Jesus didn't mean it (but but, he also says....)
2.) You're using a bad translation (doesn't matter what translation is used)
3.) Accused one bible version as being bad because it was written by heretics and commies.
4.) I bet you can't name 2 examples of him keeping secrets (Like, one example isn't enough)

Nope, this is all very troubling to him but he'll never admit it. Much like the fact that Jesus condoned slavery This issue is much more easily explained and forgivable when you believe that Jesus was a man. But for a god....
 
joobz said:
Much like the fact that Jesus condoned slavery This issue is much more easily explained and forgivable when you believe that Jesus was a man. But for a god....
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It is also easily explained even if Jesus was a god.
He condoned slavery or didn't give a damn.
 
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joobz said:
DOC made a mistake admitting to what cults are like. He's now attempting to distance christianity from this label.
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So I assume then you believe 42 presidents claimed to members of something that is a cult.
 
DOC said:
So I assume then you believe 42 presidents claimed to members of something that is a cult.
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I do. I think a lot of well respected people have joined the cult of religions. Not just presidents but also world leaders in other parts of the world. It's strange and scary but nothing new. Or do you claim that the Roman leaders and Greek leaders of thousands of years ago were on to something?
 
joobz said:
Mark 8:27-30

Quote:

27And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
28And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
29And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. 30And he charged them that they should tell no man of him


Jesus kept him being the messiah a secret. Much like how Scientology keeps Xenu a secret
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You would not have made a good general because you're more worried about short term appearances and protocol than the long term victory. You want Jesus to shout from the rooftop his mission in "Roman occupied territory" where any mention of Jesus being the Messiah would have very likely been considered a threat by the Roman authorities, and thus Jesus' teachings for 3 years would have most likely been cut short.

The following explanations from Wiki's article on the Messianic secret agrees with this:

"It is also reasonable to believe that Christ might want to suppress public fervor about himself until the opportune time. According to the Gospel, he was already a celebrity in Palestine. He might want to retain some measure of anonymity in order to be able to move about Judea without a multitude of followers.[3] Equally, events like the Bar Kokhba revolt showed that, at least in many Jewish minds, the concept of Messiah was linked to violent revolution and political freedom from Rome (even the Gospels raise this possibility in Simon Zealotes). Possibly Jesus suppressed his claims to Messiahship to prevent a revolution until the real meaning of his position was made clear in his death.

* Theological explanations: a prominent example is proposed by Wilhelm Wrede.[1] Quite simply, it was not the proper time for him to be revealed as such yet. He knew when he had to go to the court and then be crucified. -In Mark 8:30 Jesus, “Then strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.” Jesus’ messianic mission cannot be understood apart from the cross, which the disciples did not yet understand (vs. 31-33 and ch. 9 vs. 30-32) In v.31 It says, “and he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. And Jesus said get behind me Satan. For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Also in Mark 9:30-32 it states,” and he did not want anyone to know it. For he taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him.” It seems by looking at this passages it would be illogical to think that the author of Mark added these Messianic secrets so as to claim why Jesus was the Messiah, but nobody knew about it. We can see that after every time Jesus said not to tell the others about how he was the Messiah, he gives the explanation of why. He tells them that they should tell no one because for them to have proclaimed Jesus as Messiah at this point would have only furthered the misunderstanding that the Messiah was to be a political-military deliverer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_secret
 
paximperium said:
Sure. So I assume you concede that Christianity is a cult?
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Of course not, the largest religion in the world is not a cult. It got to be the largest religion in the world for a reason. Read the definition of cult.
 
Actually stupidity is the largest religion in the world, and there's got to be a reason for that as well!
 
DOC said:
So I assume then you believe 42 presidents claimed to members of something that is a cult.
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That's not my primary thesis.

My main point is that Christ displays many (if not all) of the personality characteristics of a cult leader, secrecy being merely one of them.


ETA:
1.) demands the giving away of personal wealth
2.) demands devotion to cult/cult leader to be more than that to family.
3.) Keeps secrets to inner group members
4.) Fosters an Us/THEM mind set.
5.) Speaks enigmatically and leaves statements highly open to interpretation
6.) Charges members with the duty of collecting more members.
 
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DOC said:
You would not have made a good general because you're more worried about short term appearances and protocol than the long term victory. You want Jesus to shout from the rooftop his mission in "Roman occupied territory" where any mention of Jesus being the Messiah would have very likely been considered a threat by the Roman authorities, and thus Jesus' teachings for 3 years would have most likely been cut short.
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Cults always give "fear of revealing the truth too soon" as an excuse for keeping secrets. Otherwise there may be horrible repercussions and persecution should they tell the truth.

All you are doing is giving the EXACT SAME EXCUSES that scientology, branch davidians, ... give for not telling all their "truths".
 
DOC said:
Of course not, the largest religion in the world is not a cult. It got to be the largest religion in the world for a reason. Read the definition of cult.
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It is the world's largest religion, but only if you count every sect, things like Jehova's Witnesses, LDS, and even nominal. Islams major sects have more members than Christian sects. Even the world's 1.1 billion nonreligious outnumber the 500 million protestants.
 
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