Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Lothian]

What translation of the bible do you prefer?

I like it illustrated with LEGO.

 

[Hokulele]

True Christians know too well the character of this sponsoring, propagandizing organization to approve it as a trustworthy guide in determining and safeguarding the text of Holy Scripture.

HA! HA! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Eeehee, ooh, ha! Heh.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Let's just say I have enough knowledge of the Bible to keep 140 posters interested in a thread 57 pages long in a forum that is one of the least viewed.

Ah, so you continue to confuse absolute screaming frustration with your ignorance, generalizations, and fallacies with interest.

And how long have you had these delusions?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I love how the Bible is not only open to interpretation, but that there also are a number of editions out there interpreted for you!

Mechanic A: Hmm, OK, let's turn the Port side oil filter valve three rotations.

Mechanic B: Jason, what the ◊◊◊◊ are you on about? If you turn the valve at this point the engine will overheat and we'll be spending the rest of the week getting it back into shape! Did you even read the Erdal Shipyards Container Diesel Engine Maintenance Instruction Manual?

Mechanic A: Which version? The Improved and Reinterpreted Standard Edition from Norway says to turn it three rotations - you aren't using the one from Japan, are you? It's almost as bad as the one they use over in Texas, and...

Mechanic B: ...

True Christians know too well the character of this sponsoring, propagandizing organization to approve it as a trustworthy guide in determining and safeguarding the text of Holy Scripture.

Translation: if it disagrees with me, it must be false.

What translation of the bible do you prefer?

I like it illustrated with LEGO.

That.

If only it weren't so brutally honest, it'd be a great tool for guiding people to Christ, but as it is, it's just good for guiding people, period.

​

Ah, so you continue to confuse absolute screaming frustration with your ignorance, generalizations, and fallacies with interest.

There might be a certain amount of fascination, as well.

 

[DOC]

Pick your tranlation, they all say the same thing:
Jesus doesn't give them the "truth" because those on the outside aren't as good as his inner circle.

This is incorrect. Jesus was very interested in getting the word out which is why he spent much of his time walking and teaching amongst the masses in spite of much danger. The verses you mentioned show that the reason the truth is not getting to some people is because of their own inability to grasp it in their present condition. Several times I have read a book, and then I've come back months or years later and read the same thing and I noticed or perceived something additional to the first time I read it. I just didn't grasp it the first time either because I was reading it to fast or I had other things on my mind or maybe I just got smarter or for whatever reason.

The following command Jesus gave his disciples shortly before he left this earth shows he was definitely interested in getting the message out to everyone.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[joobz]

This is incorrect. Jesus was very interested in getting the word out which is why he spent much of his time walking and teaching amongst the masses in spite of much danger.

As do cult members. Scientology is always looking for new members.

The verses you mentioned show that the reason the truth is not getting to some people is because of their own inability to grasp it in their present condition.

Scientology says the same thing.

Yup. Jesus was a quintesential cult leader. Kept secrets just like the mormons. Just like L.Ron Hubbard.

Thanks for helping me see it this way. I'd never considered it this way before.

 

[paximperium]

The verses you mentioned show that the reason the truth is not getting to some people is because of their own inability to grasp it in their present condition.

"You can't handle the Truth!"
Those masses can't handle the Truth of Xenu/YHWH.

 

[Hokulele]

Several times I have read a book...

Which didn't happen to be the bible...

 

[DOC]

Notice that the critique doesn't speak of what is TRUE. But rather the people who did the translations may/may not have heretical views.

The critique (cited earlier) also says this:

"...it is evident that the personal views of these men have been introduced into the text of this new translation."

And if this is true (which the committee believes) it obviously has a lot to do with the truth of the Revised Standard translation.

 

[DOC]

As do cult members. Scientology is always looking for new members.


Scientology says the same thing.

Yup. Jesus was a quintesential cult leader. Kept secrets just like the mormons. Just like L.Ron Hubbard.

Thanks for helping me see it this way. I'd never considered it this way before.

All of this doesn't address the incorrectness of your original statement statement which was:

Pick your tranlation, they all say the same thing:
Jesus doesn't give them the "truth" because those on the outside aren't as good as his inner circle.

I showed why it was incorrect in this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4523439#post4523439

 

[joobz]

The critique (cited earlier) also says this:

"...it is evident that the personal views of these men have been introduced into the text of this new translation."

And if this is true (which the committee believes) it obviously has a lot to do with the truth of the Revised Standard translation.

Assertion without evidence. Same thing could be said for any translation of the book.

"I don't like the translators, so it must not be true."

 

[Lothian]

The critique (cited earlier) also says this:

"...it is evident that the personal views of these men have been introduced into the text of this new translation."

And if this is true (which the committee believes) it obviously has a lot to do with what is TRUE.

Doc,

Can you help me out? I am looking for a version of the bible that doesn’t contain conflicting personal views but gives a TRUE report of the facts. Do you know one?

 

[DOC]

T

Scientology says the same thing.

Yup. Jesus was a quintesential cult leader. Kept secrets just like the mormons. Just like L.Ron Hubbard.

If Jesus is so interested in secrets why did he say this to the apostles:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

 

[joobz]

All of this doesn't address the incorrectness of your original statement statement which was:



I showed why it was incorrect in this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4523439#post4523439

Nope. Your bible quote which you worked hard at obtaining simply says, "all things whatsoever I have commanded you: "

That statement obviously excludes the things he says are secret. So, it doesn't help your case at all.


Of course, this is all moot as we know that secrets that Jesus kept, which isn't a secret. It's in the bible. Unless, of course, there are other things that the catholic church has withheld.

Now, remember DOC. You were the one to state clearly that secret keeping is something that cults do. Jesus kept secrets. So JEsus is cult like. It's your logic brought to it's natural conclusion.

 

[DOC]

Doc,

Can you help me out? I am looking for a version of the bible that doesn’t contain conflicting personal views but gives a TRUE report of the facts. Do you know one?

Well the best thing to do would be to look at several translations. Let's say you look at 4 translations and 3 of them says pretty much the same thing in a verse, but the 4th says something that is quite different. Well it is "more likely" that the 4th translation is not the correct one. For example here is the translation Hokulele brought in from the "Revised Standard Version" that I talked about earlier:

Originally Posted by Mark 4:10-12, RSV
And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."

The "so that they may indeed" wording is quite confusing and actually makes it look like Jesus is deliberately trying to keep information that may help the people from them. This most likely is a false translation because the 3 translations of this verse that joobz brought in earlier (post 2299) tell a much different story. Those translations says that the reason the information is kept from {most} people is because of their own inability to understand it. Jesus thus used parables to help alleviate this.

So 3 translations tell one story and the 4th RSV translation tells something completely different and actually appears derogatory to Christianity... And all of this adds some support to the criticism of the Revised Standard Version mentioned earlier (in post 2297).

 

[DOC]

Nope. Your bible quote which you worked hard at obtaining simply says, "all things whatsoever I have commanded you: "

That statement obviously excludes the things he says are secret. So, it doesn't help your case at all.

In all of the tremendous amount of teaching Jesus did to the people list "all" of the secret things that Jesus wanted to keep from the people.

 

[Lothian]

Well the best thing to do would be to look at several translations. .....

I think you are misunderstanding my request. I am not looking for the bible that is most consistent with other versions of the bible. I want to know which one gives the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Which bible leaves out the personal opinions, and parables but instead gives the literal truth, one which doesn’t contradict itself but can be relied upon to tell it as it literally happened.

 

[joobz]

In all of the tremendous amount of teaching Jesus did to the people list "all" of the secret things that Jesus wanted to keep from the people.

Well, how could I know ALL of the things he wanted to keep secret. I mean, if they were successful, I wouldn't know and neither would you.

But it's clear that he admits to speaking in parable to confuse his message. He chooses to speak enigmatically so that only those "worthy" of getting it, get it. That's very much like a cult leader.


ETA:
DOC, do you not find it odd that Jesus speaks in confusing parables and then BLAMES those who don't get the message. I mean, if he really is god, wouldn't he want to speak as honest and forthright as possible so as to avoid confusion. I mean, god would know how easy it is for dumb humans to missinterpret him.

 

[Hokulele]

Well the best thing to do would be to look at several translations. Let's say you look at 4 translations and 3 of them says pretty much the same thing in a verse, but the 4th says something that is quite different. Well it is "more likely" that the 4th translation is not the correct one. For example here is the translation Hokulele brought in from the "Revised Standard Version" that I talked about earlier:

The best thing to do would be to go back to the original Greek. Here is an in-depth technical discussion based on the original words, and the author's conclusion is that Jesus was deliberately keeping secrets.

It is this second group who are described in the terrible words of Is. 6:9-10, quoted in abbreviated form (and with the first two clauses reversed; see above) in v. 12. But the quotation is introducted by iva, and it is this conjunction which more than anything else suggests a purpose of concealment in Jesus' pronouncement.

(Emphasis in the original.)

Source: The disucssion takes place on pages 193-199.

http://books.google.com/books?id=B4ei0AZSWsoC&printsec=frontcover#PPA193,M1

 

[DOC]

Nope. Your bible quote which you worked hard at obtaining simply says, "all things whatsoever I have commanded you: "

That statement obviously excludes the things he says are secret...

Posted by DOC
In all of the tremendous amount of teaching Jesus did to the people list "all" of the secret things that Jesus wanted to keep from the people.

Well, how could I know ALL of the things he wanted to keep secret. I mean, if they were successful, I wouldn't know and neither would you.

Well then list just 2 with the verse.

But it's clear that he admits to speaking in parable to confuse his message. He chooses to speak enigmatically so that only those "worthy" of getting it, get it. That's very much like a cult leader.

Of course this is false.