Molten Steel

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No, there are numerous qualified witnesses, a photo and evidence of thermite in the WTC dust.

Stop playing dodgeball and snipping out stuff you cant answer. Its intellectual cowardice.

[C7 mode on]The picture is not in sunlight therefore you canot use it to determine anything.[/C7 mode off]
 
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It doesn't happen that fast.

Dump some dirt or sand in the bed of a truck and hollow out a place for it.

You are hand waving Mark Loizeaux statement. He doesn't have a problem with admitting there was molten steel, why do you?

And again with the rampant speculation?
 
It doesn't happen that fast.

Dump some dirt or sand in the bed of a truck and hollow out a place for it.

Why? The process would be stunningly dangerous to people and damaging to equipment. Also, there would be no earthly point in doing it. Nobody would even try this.

You are creating an absurd scenario to bolster Loizeaux's - probably thoughtless - repetition of some second-hand remark he'd heard.

You need to bolster that remark to support your daft thermite theory.

You are creating your own reality to bolster your obsession, and obsession is where you begin.
 
No, I'm noting that Mark Loizeaux and many others have said that there was molten steel. There is no reason to doubt them.

He saw photographs. You are using a photograph.

[C7 mode on]The picture is not in sunlight therefore you canot use it to determine anything.[/C7 mode off]

We can both play games like that.

Mark Loizeuax laughs at truther claims and say the CD of any of the buildings on that day was impossible, do you take his expertise when he is making this claim? If not why not?
 
No, I'm noting that Mark Loizeaux and many others have said that there was molten steel. There is no reason to doubt them.

You've been shown a message from him denying that he saw molten metal. There are a couple obvious follow-up questions you could ask about that message but you don't. You are not even trying to consider the points we make.
 
In a court of law perhaps, but we are not in a court of law. All evidence can and should be considered.

No, second hand accounts are considered very poor evidence everywhere. Science doesn't look very kindly upon them either.

You did not answer the question.

Because I do not answer 'Do you still beat your wife?' questions.

Then you believe him when he says there are photos and videos of molten steel, right?

No. I think he is mistaken or using the wrong terminology. Many folks have a bad habit of using 'molten' when they really mean 'red hot', which is quite viable. But I don't know. What I do know is that his report is at best second hand (probably 3rd or 4th) and that there is no photo or video evidence.

The government has 7,000 photos and 7,000 video clips. You know that.

So....you got nothing then?

Not so. The steel buckets are very thick and heavy. It takes a while for steel to heat up. The bucket could be cooled after each dip with a fire hose. The biggest problem would probably be metal solidifying on the bucket.

Wow. Why don't you go tell the foundries of your wonderful ideas? I'm sure they could save a mint by using a standard bucket excavator as opposed to the work-at-site methods. They'd save tons on tooling, mold placement, and other things!
 
No, i was rounding off.

My dear Watson, please observe:
[the closest hoses are at the elbow, another 6-10 feet away]

[qimg]http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4254/crabclawwithpistonsealajk6.png[/qimg]

Are you calling that molten steel?! That's not even close! What a flipping joke!
 
No, I'm noting that Mark Loizeaux and many others have said that there was molten steel. There is no reason to doubt them.

"Loizeaux and a small handful of others once made the claim that they had heard through secondhand accounts that there was molten steel."

Don't you agree that this is a more accurate phrasing of your first sentence? Do you agree that there is plenty of reason to doubt that there was, in fact, molten steel present based on such tenuous claims?

You continue to use the present tense when speaking of people's claims; when will you be verifying that these claims are still held by the people in question?

Once again, you are using other people's words from years ago in order to lie. You are lying, today, based on their words. Every time you continue to claim, in present tense, that they believe there was molten steel, you are lying. (Of course, you could shut me up real quick by providing the evidence that they do still believe, but you won't, because you know you are lying, and you know that they do not believe the words that you continue to put in their mouths. Your cowardly rhetorical device does not insulate you from culpability here; everyone can tell it is your words, and your framing of theirs, that forms the lie.)
 
You are creating an absurd scenario to bolster Loizeaux's - probably thoughtless - repetition of some second-hand remark he'd heard.
You are out of your mind.

Mark Loizeaux was very clear about the pictures and videos.
He trusted the contractors he had worked with and you just blow it off by saying he was being thoughtless.

You are in denial.
 
You are out of your mind.

Mark Loizeaux was very clear about the pictures and videos.
He trusted the contractors he had worked with and you just blow it off by saying he was being thoughtless.

You are in denial.


Yes, he is very clear. He did't see, first-hand, any molten steel. It's all second-hand. It was an urban legend.

Mr. Bryan:

I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center
site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working
with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of
debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were
digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris
pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel
being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where
you can get a copy.

Sorry I cannot provide personal confirmation.

Regards,
==========================

Mark Loizeaux, President
CONTROLLED DEMOLITION, INC.
2737 Merryman's Mill Road
Phoenix, Maryland USA 21131
Tel: 1-410-667-6610
Fax: 1-410-667-6624
www.controlled-demolition.com

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...e?dmode=source
 
"Loizeaux and a small handful of others once made the claim that they had heard through secondhand accounts that there was molten steel."

Don't you agree that this is a more accurate phrasing of your first sentence? Do you agree that there is plenty of reason to doubt that there was, in fact, molten steel present based on such tenuous claims?

You continue to use the present tense when speaking of people's claims; when will you be verifying that these claims are still held by the people in question?

Once again, you are using other people's words from years ago in order to lie. You are lying, today, based on their words. Every time you continue to claim, in present tense, that they believe there was molten steel, you are lying. (Of course, you could shut me up real quick by providing the evidence that they do still believe, but you won't, because you know you are lying, and you know that they do not believe the words that you continue to put in their mouths. Your cowardly rhetorical device does not insulate you from culpability here; everyone can tell it is your words, and your framing of theirs, that forms the lie.)
You are all desperately thinking up reasons to ignore all the eyewitness statements of molten steel. That's just plain denial.

No worries.

But who should people listen to?

The professionals who saw the molten steel, or saw the photos and videos before the government hid them from the public.

Or should people believe a lot of ill mannered anonymous posters who just flat deny any evidence that goes against the Official Collapse Theory?
 
You are all desperately thinking up reasons to ignore all the eyewitness statements of molten steel. That's just plain denial.

You certainly haven't brought up the names of anyone that says "I saw" that can be confirmed. When asked, everyone says they heard it from someone else. That's what is called an urban legend.

There is no known confirmed eyewitness to molten steel.
 
In a court of law perhaps, but we are not in a court of law. All evidence can and should be considered.


You did not answer the question.



Then you believe him when he says there are photos and videos of molten steel, right?

The government has 7,000 photos and 7,000 video clips. You know that.

Not so. The steel buckets are very thick and heavy. It takes a while for steel to heat up. The bucket could be cooled after each dip with a fire hose. The biggest problem would probably be metal solidifying on the bucket.

Given a fire hose, wouldn't it be easier to cool off the metal before picking it up and risking an expensive bucket?
 
It doesn't happen that fast.
Baseless speculation - show your working or a source or withdraw your statement.

Dump some dirt or sand in the bed of a truck and hollow out a place for it.
This would be an extremely dangerous operation because of the temperatures and the material involved. We don't continue spending large quantities of money developing refractory materials that are capable of resisting liquid steel for nothing. Transporting liquid steel is not like transporting water. Have you any accounts of truck drivers and digger drivers actually doing this?

You are hand waving Mark Loizeaux statement. He doesn't have a problem with admitting there was molten steel, why do you?
He is mistaken, he's saying from a second hand witness statement and we know that when they say "molten" and "steel" they are not necessarily meaning liquid and steel, but are using this as an analogy to best describe something that they have little experience with. Metaphor, simile.

We have a number of problems with the "molten steel" malarky.

- We have no evidence for it.
- No explanation for it.

Lets actually look at what you are claiming with thermite.

OK - the NWO transports an unknown quantity of thermite and installs it using unknown charges without anyone the wiser. After an aircraft smashes into the structure causing significant damage, the devices are all still in place and un-damaged.

At some unknown specified time the charges are set off by unknown means collapsing the building and killing 3000 people. The liquid iron from the thermite and the liquid steel that was melted via the thermite do not cool and are not spread about by the buildings collapse. The building is completely destroyed and it's constituents spread all over, but the liquid iron and steel are not affected and somehow pool.

This liquid stays hot enough to remain liquid for some considerable time and is large enough to form rivers or more than two digger bucket-fulls. Heat of the underground fires caused by the burning of WTC materials are not hot enough to keep the "molten metal" liquid however, the fires are fed by additional thermite that was left over from the original charges. The NWO miscalculated the amount of thermite they would need to do the job and ordered more than was needed to just cut columns. They ordered enough to keep steel liquid for weeks. Thermite burns at a high rate with a very bright flame yet no-one saw bright flames continuing to burn for days on end.

No-one knows how enough of this thermite managed to gather in the rubble pile in sufficient quantity to keep steel liquid for weeks, because a lone crusader says alot of it was found in dust spread all over Manhatten. No-one knows how the thermite that did gather was ignited, because we know you need high temperatures > 1000°C and these temperatures cannot be caused by fires (can they truthers?)

So just because thermite can melt small quantities of steel how can thermite account for all of this?

No wonder truthers get laughed at - it's preposterous.

During the clean up allsorts of small items were found yet no evidence was found of cutting devices, thermite, liquid iron/steel, detonators, radio receivers, det-cord etc. It's a bit of a mystery isn't it?

So come on C7 - give us a few paragraphs showing us how it all works. Give us a narrative, show us what you claim happened. Show us how the liquid iron from the thermite and the liquid steel from the structure could have remained liquid, then survived the collapse intact, then had sufficient quantity to pool, had sufficient thermal input to remain liquid for days and weeks.
 
Your abject denial will become more apparent when you try to say all these people don't know what they are talking about.

Abolhassan Astaneh: Professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and was one of the leading structural engineers who studied the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html

The History Channel's "World Trade Center, Rise and Fall of an American Icon"
Richard Riggs a Debris Removal Specialist that was doing the clean up.
"The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ogrupgt4mI&feature=related

Firefighters
"You get down below and you'd see molten steel - molten steel running down the channel rail, like you're in a foundry, like lava."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3060923273573302287&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

Fuchek
“In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,”

Firefighter Joe O'Toole
[FONT=&quot]As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O'Toole[/FONT][FONT=&quot] saw a steel beam being lifted[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from deep underground at [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ground Zero, which, he says, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"was dripping from the [/FONT]molten steel[FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/messengerinquirer_recoveryworker.html

Father Edward A. Malloy, on site 40 days after the disaster stated:
"Firefighters atop a number of ladder trucks were spraying in the areas of greatest smoke. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500F so that when steel is brought up it is molten and takes two or three days to cool down."


Lee Turner: Paramedic
Turner himself crawled through an opening and down crumpled stairwells to the subway, five levels below ground. He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/articles/911memories.htm

Alison Geyh, PhD.: John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."


http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm

Ron Burger: Public health advisor at the National Center for Environmental Health, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
“Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen’s and the thousands who fled that disaster,”
http://www.neha.org/9-11 report/index-The.html

Peter Tully: President of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center.
Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site.
Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020905195530/http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html

Mark Loizeaux:
"I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where you can get a copy."
[FONT=&quot]http://www.serendipity.li/wot/bollyn2.htm[/FONT]

There is no doubt in his mind that there was molten steel at the World Trade Center site.
 
Your abject denial will become more apparent when you try to say all these people don't know what they are talking about.

Abolhassan Astaneh: Professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and was one of the leading structural engineers who studied the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html


OK, folks, in this 2007 interview about one of the steel bridges that collapsed due to fire, engineer Astaneh says this. What are we debunkers to make of it?

ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Here, [The Bridge fire] it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center.

SPENCER MICHELS: But they got soft, though, didn't they?

ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Yes. When steel gets to 1,000 degrees, it loses its strength.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html
 
He is mistaken, [:D You are so in denial] he's saying from a second hand witness statement and we know that when they say "molten" and "steel" they are not necessarily meaning liquid and steel, but are using this as an analogy to best describe something that they have little experience with. Metaphor, simile.
What part of "dipped out by the buckets of excavators" don't you understand?

We have a number of problems with the "molten steel" malarky.
Only because you cant deal with reality.

You ask for speculation and then maliciously insult anyone who tries to answer.

It is not necessary to explain HOW it was done, the eyewitness statements are enough for a reasonable person to accept that there was molten steel in the debris pile.
There is other evidence which you also deny.

Thermite is the only known explanation for the molten steel.
 
OK, folks, in this 2007 interview about one of the steel bridges that collapsed due to fire, engineer Astaneh says this. What are we debunkers to make of it?
He saw melted girders at the WTC
and when steel gets to 1,000 degrees, it loses its strength.

That's pretty straightforward.
 
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