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Paranormal detection

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Why does it matter if I'm inventing/imposing definitions that in effect conform with my claim and common sense !?.
Also although no one cares about Changing Minds Org. definitions , their disinformation bias definition doesn't even sound as scientific as mine !

Inventing arbitrary defintions is exactly the opposite of what you should be trying to achieve.

Reason1, since you obviously have difficulties with the English language - for which no one blames you - why don't you try to state your claim and propose a protocol, as the Challenge Rules require you to?

This discussion of tangential issues does not bring you any closer to the JREF Prize.

You are saying, it's ironic that I'm biased towards my confirmation and in the same time towards my disconfirmation, sounds contradictory !
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What I said above.

science is a methodology not a position !.
That is why I'm telling you to change your position and accept my synchronous reflexes as a scientific method that will make my protocol self-evident.Also you shouldn't be biased towards (confirming) NON self-evident misses which are irrelevant because the odds are against that a self-evident test would happen 100 times under random but controlled settings.
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Again: What I said above. I do not think you realise that the words you use do not mean what you think they mean.
 
Reason1, since you obviously have difficulties with the English language - for which no one blames you -

if you are talking about "disinformation bias" ,it's not my fault , it's the spell checker fault, I've already edited the post.
is there any other mistakes ?
no need to be very pedantic though !.
 
if you are talking about "disinformation bias" ,it's not my fault , it's the spell checker fault, I've already edited the post.
is there any other mistakes ?
no need to be very pedantic though !.

You are asking a German not to be pedantic? Seriously?

The issues I had with your last post and a few others before were not concerned with spelling. Spelling, shmelling.

They were concerned with you possibly not knowing the meanings of some difficult words - and concepts using difficult words - in the English language. This includes for example the meaning of self-evident and confirmation bias.

Therefore, I was hoping we could leave these definitions aside for the moment because they seem not all that important.

What seems important to me right now is for you to state your claim and propose a protocol. Why? Because this process will put you in the position to reflect and state precisely what you are trying to do.

And that is really the point of the this thread, right?

May I ask which country you are from, reason1?
 
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if you are talking about "disinformation bias" ,it's not my fault , it's the spell checker fault, I've already edited the post.
is there any other mistakes ?
no need to be very pedantic though !.

Allow me to be a bit German pedantic: It is considered bad netiquette - bad manners if you will - to edit posts without describing the reason for the editing.
 
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Moreover even the language dictionaries description of staring comply with my definitions (which also conforms with common sense), and that is because language dictionaries describe words that happen in normal ever day life.

I disagree with this statement. Please provide citations to prove me wrong.

It's impossible for any tester/observer to tell if i didn't detect a stare, they can only guess , and that is because misses are non self-evident .
Also guessing is NOT scientifically acceptable proof that there was a miss; the testers/observers cannot get inside the mind of the starer to see if he/she was actually staring as i describe it.
There is a rare possibility for non self-evident hit,which is when i reflex my face at someone and he/she doesn't reflex his/her face away, some people are bold and will just keep staring.
Although in this particular case, testers/observers will not count a hit , also they can't say for sure that this is a miss.

Then your claim is it stands is untestable.
 
Well, this thread is worth it! I now know that Hello Ma Baby(the actual name title of "Ragtime Gal", he says, desperately trying to maintain some trivia credibility) was also in the first Michigan J. Frog cartoon. But didja kinow that he wasn't named Michigan J. Frog until sometime in the 70s? [/derail]

reason1 - there's still this definition problem. If you're going to make a legitimate go at The Challenge, you have to be using terminology that the rest of the world can agree with. We've already explained that your codicile on staring having to be a natural act and have some emotional basis is NOT what the rest of us agree to. I even cited you an on-line dictionary definition.
I like the addition of money to the staring, as suggested above. "Now one of these people has a thousand dollars just aching to be given to you. All you have to do is identify that person and silently hold up the number of fingers for that person and stare at him/her thinking of that thousand bucks."

With greed being what it is, you'll get intensely emotional staring. Do it with five seated persons (so they can silently indicate the number on one hand), and repeat, say 20 times. A 1:5 chance of guessing correct, but with 10 or 20 repetitions, should be statistically acceptable. (Since you claim 100% as your results.)
 
reason1,

There is NO WAY your ability can be tested objectively as you describe it. There is NO WAY you will be able to apply for the MDC.

Further, there is NOTHING paranormal about your claim. Your experiences are COMPLETELY normal and can happen to ANYONE.

I think it's time for a reality check.

NONE of your experiences were paranormal. ALL were completely normal.

I am happy to answer ANY questions you have. I am confident that I can give you ordinary explanations for ALL of your experiences. Since the MDC tests paranormal claims, you CANNOT win the million.
 
Why do i need to ask anyone about why he/she was staring who may also lie about it ?!.

Because you will otherwise not find out.


Again , there is only ONE type of staring.Trying to consciously simulate staring in the lab is NOT staring that happens in normal every day life.

I and everyone else agrees that there is only ONE type of staring but you have made up at least 2 (Active and passive) so what is it?

Moreover even the language dictionaries description of staring comply with my definitions (which also conforms with common sense), and that is because language dictionaries describe words that happen in normal ever day life.
OK ?

Not true: to look fixedly often with wide-open eyes http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/staring nothing about active or passive or anything


Also guessing is NOT scientifically acceptable proof that there was a miss; the testers/observers cannot get inside the mind of the starer to see if he/she was actually staring as i describe it.

Nor can you, so give up your claim.

There is a rare possibility for non self-evident hit,which is when i reflex my face at someone and he/she doesn't reflex his/her face away, some people are bold and will just keep staring.
Although in this particular case, testers/observers will not count a hit , also they can't say for sure that this is a miss.

Nor can you, so give up your claim

Also: if you do look at someone appearing to stare at you you can not be sure that they actually were because you cannot get inside their mind to check. So you are saying that you agree that your claim is untestable and you are giving up?


Although irrelevant ,not all reflexes are mentioned in this list.What about the unbearable heat reflex or the immediate danger reflex ?.Why not add detected-starer reflex
Those two are not reflexes.

Again what about the synchronous reflexes

What are those? Did you just make that up?


Where are the good ideas/tests that will make me detect misses of staring as i describe it

If you PER DEFINITION decide that if you don't feel it then someone is not staring at you, you have a problem. Because it would make your claim untestable. Because imagine this: someone is intently staring at you or staring in your definition but you don't feel it. That would mean 1) you are wrong about your ability or 2) the person was not staring?
If 2 you will always be right even if you are wrong.

Why does it matter if I'm inventing/imposing definitions that in effect conform with my claim and common sense !?.
Also although no one cares about Changing Minds Org. definitions , their disconfirmation bias definition doesn't even sound as scientific as mine !

Seriously?? if you invent them they are not definitions. Sounding scientific does not make science or sense

You are saying, it's ironic that I'm biased towards my confirmation and in the same time towards my disconfirmation, sounds contradictory !

I am saying that they are the same in your case. You only want to think you are right and you will only look at information that confirms that belief.

science is a methodology not a position !.

You know this, but do you understand what it means. Why not apply that knowledge to your claim. Based on the following I would say no. Are you a clever sockpuppet??

That is why I'm telling you to change your position and accept my synchronous reflexes as a scientific method it is per that will make my protocol self-evident.

You can tell all you want but you first have to prove that synchronous reflexes exist outside of your experience and that they mean something.

Also you shouldn't be biased towards (confirming) NON self-evident misses

What does biased towards (confirming) NON self-evident misses mean?? Give an example

which are irrelevant because the odds are against that a self-evident test would happen 100 times under random but controlled settings.

That the odds are against something does not make them irrelevant

Don't waste another post making up new stuff and then complaining that people keep asking you questions. Man up and answer them.
 
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wow , some people are really on the defensive
greetings to all open-minded objective members of this wonderful forum.


I'm not on the defensive at all. I've come to a conclusion based on the experiences you have described.

I'll say it again:

Everything you have described to date is nothing out of the ordinary - very normal experiences. The JREF is in the business of testing paranormal claims. Since you don't have one, you can't win the million.
 
reason1, I will put this as simply as possible:

There is a crowd of 100 people walking past you. Five of them are staring at you. You "reflex around", or whatever and see one person staring, and miss the other four.

That is a fail.

Write a protocol to objectively (to both the observer and yourself) overcome this problem. If you cannot do that at a minimum, you are wasting your time.

Norm
 
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wow , some people are really on the defensive
greetings to all open-minded objective members of this wonderful forum.

I do not really see many people on the defensive side - except perhaps you.

Evidence of your claimed ability in a controlled test would likely convince even those you perceive as close-minded. But for that to happen in this realm you would have to apply first. Do you still intend to apply for the Million Dollar Challenge, reason1?
 
Made any progress on the required academic and media recognition?
Have you contacted JREF (challenge@randi.org) regarding your claim?
 
Foolmewunz-

First, please note that I suggested $5, not $1000. And frankly, I'd stare at a guy (and I mean a "real" stare) if I thought he had a nickel.

Second, and much more importantly, let me apologize for saying that "Hello Ma Baby" was titled "Ragtime Gal." I sang it in a chorus once and the title on our mimeographed (I am elderly) copies was "Ragtime Gal." It actually is "Hello Ma Baby." That and "The Michigan Rag" are not the only songs the frog sings. You can read about each and every number at this website:
http://froggyeve.tripod.com/index.html

Sorry,
Ward
 
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reason1 said:
... the testers/observers cannot get inside the mind of the starer to see if he/she was actually staring as i describe it.

Reason1, this is the portion of your statement that makes your claim untestable.

What you are saying here is that the only way for observers to know that you were successful is when you tell them you were successful. I don't speak for JREF, but I can confidently tell you that they will reject your claim if this is true. Please search for, and read, threads concerning cloud-busting. Your claim exactly the same, and will be rejected for the same reasons.

Now, if I am correct in understanding you, you're stating that there is an objective way to measure this based on the angle by which people's heads move (and your head moves) when people are staring at you (as you describe it), by the angle at which your head moves when you are reacting to them, and by the fact that this will occur more or less simultaneously.

Let us entertain, for a moment, the setup that would be required in order to actually objectively measure this in a public setting (and bear in mind that there are a LOT of assumptions built into the following setup).

First, there would need to be an enormous number of cameras. They would have to have running synchronized timestamps, and they would need to be viewing the scene from a variety of viewpoints, including from straight above.

You'd need to obtain permission to do this in this public setting. If in a mall, it would require the permission of the mall's owners. If in a truly public setting, it would require the permission of the authorities (and probably a permit).

You would likely also need to obtain the permission of the people filmed to film them. I'd actually consult with a lawyer to see what privacy laws apply here.

Secondly, you would need either specially-written software or (simpler) clear film templates that could be overlayed on the screen. These would be used to determine whether the person's head had deflected from that person's centerline by a certain angular amount. This would only work, of course, if the person happened to be staring at you as he or she was passing directly underneath a camera. So persons who were staring at you but of whom a solid picture (for the purpose of management) couldn't be taken because of the camera position -- those "hits" would have to be discarded. That's why you'd need a lot of cameras. A LOT.

Because remember, there can't be someone saying "in my opinion, that person was staring".

Thirdly, you'd have to find a way to demonstrate that the person whose head was so deflected was actually looking at you, as opposed to looking at something in between you and the person, or something on the other side of you and the person. I have absolutely no idea how you would do that. I don't think it could be done objectively other than by having someone run up to the person and say "excuse me, what were you looking at?" which, of course, presents the possibility of the person 1) lying or 2) being a plant. This goes for you, too -- there would either have to be a way for observers to determine exactly who you were looking at (or you would have to keep a list with a sufficiently detailed description of the persons you "caught" looking at you.)

Let's just say, however, that you present some way to overcome this problem. Also, let's also assume that we've found the perfect public place, with perfectly terrible acoustics and no reflective surfaces. Let's say we've figured out some way to prevent a confederate of yours from pointing out targets. Lastly, let's assume for the purpose of this test that we've determined that anyone who meets the "looking at reason1" angular parameters who are not located in the rear x-ty degrees of arc as measured with 000 being directly in front of you are also discarded as possible "hits". (Where "x-ty" is a number of degrees mutually-agreed upon as being outside of your peripheral vision)

Are you prepared to:

o investigate the legality of placing cameras in a public place and recording persons without their implicit permission, including paying any required legal fees to obtain the permit (as applicable) to do this or
o obtaining the permission of anyone who enters (or leaves) the scene if required, which will require extra assistants and lots of paperwork, the cost of which you will be paying for and
o pay for the purchase or rental of all of these cameras and their positioning rigs and
o pay for the rental of video processing equipment and
o pay for the time of the persons who then process this data, possibly including
o paying for the writing of bespoke visual recognition software or
o paying for the creation of the film templates (if you're unable to write/create it/them yourself) as well as
o pay for the lodging and expenses of all of the participants, including those from or representing JREF?

Are you ready to assume these costs?

-=-=-=-=-

Edited to add an off-topic aside: "One Froggy Evening" is my absolute second-most favorite WB cartoon...right on the heels of "Feed the Kitty" which is, in a way, another example of how one's senses can be fooled. ; )
 
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Foolmewunz-

First, please note that I suggested $5, not $1000. And frankly, I'd stare at a guy (and I mean a "real" stare) if I thought he had a nickel.

Second, and much more importantly, let me apologize for saying that "Hello Ma Baby" was titled "Ragtime Gal." I sang it in a chorus once and the title on our mimeographed (I am elderly) copies was "Ragtime Gal." It actually is "Hello Ma Baby." That and "The Michigan Rag" are not the only songs the frog sings. You can read about each and every number at this website:
http://froggyeve.tripod.com/index.html

Sorry,
Ward


Oh, I know you said $5. I'm making it real attractive because I'm reckoning on having to do it multiple times to get a decent statistical sampling, and in any such numbers, you might find a few people to whom five bucks was of insufficient interest to spark any real ardor, and then what'd we have - reason1 claiming "Oh, that was a fervent enough stare!" Ergo, a thousand bucks would make anyone stop and lock.

More important, though, is that Michigan J. Frog rules! (More accurately, Chuck Jones rules... but MJF was one of his great characters and one of the most memorable cartoons, ever. I think you can find people of almost any generation, who if you start describing One Froggy Evening, they'll remember it.)

(And I'm pretty senior, too.... )
 
Since Reason1 states that he is not currently elligible for the challenge, and since the discussion is mostly focussed on more general issues, the thread has been moved to a more appropriate subforum.

Reason1, if you later decide to actually apply for the challenge, you may start a new thread in the Million Dollar Challenge section to focus specifically on your application. Please use this thread for general discussion of your claims.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
Since Reason1 states that he is not currently elligible for the challenge, and since the discussion is mostly focussed on more general issues, the thread has been moved to a more appropriate subforum.

Reason1, if you later decide to actually apply for the challenge, you may start a new thread in the Million Dollar Challenge section to focus specifically on your application. Please use this thread for general discussion of your claims.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

Did I miss where reason1 stated he is not currently eligible for the MDC? Not that I would disagree, though, but where has he explicitly said so?

Good call on moving the thread.
 
Did I miss where reason1 stated he is not currently eligible for the MDC? Not that I would disagree, though, but where has he explicitly said so?

Good call on moving the thread.

First post:
no media nor affidavit

Since there doesn't seem to be any sign of progress on these, this forum seems more appropriate for general discussion until he actually is elligible to apply.
 

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