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Gaza homes destruction 'wanton'

The precision bombing of key Hamas instillations and strongholds by guided missles does not equate to carpet bombing. I'm quite shocked that you'd go as far as to equate what happened to Gaza to, say Dresden or London. And here is the emotive spin you put on it, 'slaughtered vast numbers of innocent Palestinians.' Spin it however you wish, but the percent of civilian to militant deaths was quite tight. I believe B'tselem stated of all those who were killed, 48% were militants. That works out to nearly 1:1 ratio. Some homework for you, TFT, if you're interested, would be to find any other modern air campaign with such tight statistics.

Yeah but it wasn't precision bombing was it? You should believe that nonsense propaganda. The UN published an aerial shot of the damage in gaza


I don't know what you're asking here, but from what I -think- I read, it is the action of a nation near the end of its limit.

I'll play ball. Does this apartheid apply to the Arab Israelis? If not, why?

Actually parky made a thread noting some of the racist policies of Israel...

parky said:
It is legal for a Israeli school to not allow in Arab students.

Arab students recieve about 50% the amount of education funds as Jewish students.

Israel has yet to build one...single...new Arab town or city. They have built hundreds of Jewish towns.

It is legal to not sell land to someone because they are an Arab or a Muslim.

It is illegal for an Israeli political party to call Israel anything but..."The Jewish State". Yet, it is legal for a political party to call for the forced expulsion of Arabs and Muslims.

The government of Israel only recognizes marriage between Jews.

Only Jews...or those with 1/4th Jewish blood..can come to Israel under the Law of Return. There are tons of financial benefits that are ONLY eligible to folks who came under the Law of Return.

Israel, my friend, is filled with de-facto and de-sure examples of racism and discrimination.


How can a racist government discriminate against an ethnicity in one country, but not against that same ethnicitiy in its own country? Does a lack of apartheid in Israel kind of poke holes in your 'racist argument'?

See above.


Just a note: Not all settlements in the West Bank are illegal.

Anyways, I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that there is Apartheid in the West Bank? Seperation of nationals is not apartheid.

Oh right! :eek:


I don't care how you 'feel' abot something. We're discussing the legality, not the morality.

No I'm discussing morality. I just told you I don't care whether it's legal or not. I care about the human cost

I'm sorry, how is this not an Israel/Hamas conflict? Hamas is in control. Hamas launches rockets into Israel. Hamas does not prevent rockets from being fired into Israel. Hamas encourages rockets to be fired into Israel. How does striking back at Hamas equate to an attack on ALL Palestinians?

I didn't actually it wasn't did I.

The over all conflict is Israel v. palestine. The conflict with Hamas is a subset conflict


So much for your 'soft' genocide that Israel is committing. The Palestinians have survived through the conflict, but their governments and militias tend to be destroyed rather efficiently or decay from within.

Your point is? Palestinians have been slaughtered. others have survived.

And when do you think Israel will reach that conclusion

Is Israel in danger of losing militarily? Hamas will continue to fight, a losing fight I may add, until it is either destroyed or it disbands. They cannot defeat Israel militarily.

Of course they can't. Israel could just take the lot in a day if it wanted to. Of course with the world watching it won't do that

But, you'd launch rockets, just as Hamas does, right? I mean, who wouldn't retaliate, right? Except Hamas launches rockets at civilians, not the IDF. So, do you think Hamas should be 'retaliating' in the manner they've chosen?

As I've said many times in this forum I do not condone Hamas firing rockets at Isreali civilians.

Do you condone the slaughter of the Palestinian civilians?
 
Yeah but it wasn't precision bombing was it? You should believe that nonsense propaganda. The UN published an aerial shot of the damage in gaza

Feel free to discuss what actual precision bombing should look like.

Actually parky made a thread noting some of the racist policies of Israel...

I'll let you look through that thread again. Some of his/her points were refuted by another Israeli.


Oh right! :eek:

Emoticons do not make an argument. Feel free to make one.


No I'm discussing morality. I just told you I don't care whether it's legal or not. I care about the human cost

So, from this point on, you shouldn't refer to anything as being 'illegal' or use any sort of legal term when discussing actions taken by Israel. This includes weapons and tactics Israel chooses to use. Stick strictily to your moral compass.


The over all conflict is Israel v. palestine. The conflict with Hamas is a subset conflict

Has there ever been times of relative peace between Israel and Palestine?


Of course they can't.

Israel no longer phyiscally occupies Gaza. The blockade will go down when Hamas stops fighting. Why keep fighting?

As I've said many times in this forum I do not condone Hamas firing rockets at Isreali civilians.

But you can understand -why- they target civilians?

Do you condone the slaughter of the Palestinian civilians?

Is it a policy of the IDF to 'slaughter' Palestinian civilians?
 
Israel no longer phyiscally occupies Gaza. The blockade will go down when Hamas stops fighting.
evidence?


sounds as plausable as "the fighting will stop when the blockade goes down".

I'm just curious as to your response to Israel's racist policies.....is it denial or whistle a happy tune and look the other way?
 
According to the Arabs, they want Israel to withdraw from EVERY CENTIMETER of land beyond the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines.

That would, ipso facto, include the Old City of Jerusalem.
And the Jewish Quarter of same.
(yes, the Western Wall, too)

There is no difference, in the eyes of many Arabs, between the 'settlement' of Petah Tikva and the 'settlement' of Ariel.




What do the Palestinians want?

so because some palestinians want no Israel at all gives you the right to set settlements on their land?
 
evidence?


sounds as plausable as "the fighting will stop when the blockade goes down".

I'm an optimist. Hamas has said the rockets being fired are due the blockade. If it goes down, do you think they'll stop firing them? I'd like to think that -maybe- they would, and that the whole problem was the blockade in the first place, not some religious war masked as a political problem.


I'm just curious as to your response to Israel's racist policies.....is it denial or whistle a happy tune and look the other way?

Well, so far in this thread, we have parky who has said such things. He did not post any verifiable inks to his claims, so I'd have to take his word for it.

Doing a quick search, I found there is quite a lot of social discrimination IE schools being heavily favored to Jews over Arabs, the majority of those unemployed in Israel are Arabs and so on. These are things the government of Israel, and every country, has to work on in one way or another. Take a look at any Western country and try not to find some form of racial discrimination in the society.

The Israeli Arabs still hold the legal right to vote, take government positions, they have a right NOT to serve in the military, etc. There are several 'key' rights that the Arabs still retain, and I would argue those are more important. That's not to say the Israeli government should not work to eliminate the apparent discrimination within its society.
 
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Gaza homes destruction 'wanton'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7926413.stm

Human rights investigators say Israeli forces engaged in "wanton destruction" of Palestinian homes during the recent conflict in Gaza.

Amnesty International has told the BBC News website the methods used raised concerns about war crimes.



also from the article: Breaking the Silence, an Israeli group that gathers and circulates the testimonies of Israeli soldiers, has also told the BBC News website that its findings from the Gaza war suggested many demolitions had been carried out when there was no immediate threat.

"From the testimonies that we've gathered, lots of demolitions - buildings demolished either by bulldozers or explosives - were done after the area was under Israeli control," said Yehuda Shaul, one of the group's members.


GAZA DESTRUCTION
14,000 homes
219 factories
240 schools

The BBC and Amnesty Int'l have a history of being VERY unbiased toward Israel, right?
 
grow fruit, load it in a truck....then watch it rot at a checkpoint when the Israelis won't let it through? Something like that?

And who built greenhouses for terrorists? Can you site your source for that one? Or do you just use the words terrorist and palestinian interchangeably?

The greenhouses--about 400 of them--were built by the Israeli settlers in Gaza, and, subsequently, purchased for several millions of dollars by mostly Jewish philanthropists who proceeded to give the greenhouses to the Gazans. They were then looted, torched and destroyed.
 
Of course Israel has a right to defend itself. Everyone Has the right defend themselves.

What Israel does NOT have a right to do is racially persecute people, It doesn't' have a right to implement apartheid, it doesn't have a right to ghettoize the Gazans by controlling the borders, it doesn't' have a right to periodically slaughter a whole bunch of Innocent Palestinians including children.

You talk of defense? The behavior of Israel is the behavior of a racist country whose agenda is to hound and harass the Palestinians by various method ranging from apartheid to murder in order make life in Palestine hell for them. This is NOT the behavior of a country solely concerned about defending itself. None of that is an appropriate response. The recent December/January slaughter is NOT an appropriate response. both attacks on Lebanon were not appropriate responses.

Never forget .... The Palestinians have aright to defend themselves.

And whatever your viewpoint, you should at least consider that the typical over the top violent responses by Israel is only making things worse. The recent attacks on Gaza are only going to intensify a retaliation, if someone attacked me like Israel Attacked Gaza over Christmas I'd fire even more rockets at them. Wouldn't you?

You insult those who truly suffered under apartheid in S.Africa when you attempt to draw a parallel between Israel and S.Africa for your own anti-Israel agenda. Israel does not, and never has, engaged in practices that constitute apartheid.
 
As long as Israel continues it's racist atrocities I shall speak up about them. you post has no substance whatsoever. What is your point? Are you denying Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians or are you simply making a personal attack against anyone daring to spea up aout the racist atrocities of Israel.

Are you in touch with reality? Do you care about Humanity? Or do you unconditionally support Israel regardless of how they act?

Your allegation that Israel is racist has no substance and you don't appear to be attached very securely to reality, unless perhaps your own reality. You speak in histrionics and pursue a biased agenda obsessively fixated on Israel. Speak about Lebanon's atrocities against the Palestinians when 100,000 of them were kiled in the Lebanese Civil War. Speak about Kuwait ethnically cleansing the Palestinians after the Gulf War. Speak about tens of thousands of Palestinians slaughtered by King Hussein. Israeli atrocities are a figment of your mind. [/QUOTE]
 
Marc39

why do you talk about other peoples agenda? your agenda is pretty clear
 
Your allegation that Israel is racist has no substance and you don't appear to be attached very securely to reality, unless perhaps your own reality.

Now, previously you admitted that Israel builds settlements in the west bank in which Jews are allowed to live and in which Palestinian arabs are not allowed to live. Please explain how this is not racist.

I, having a Jewish mother, could emigrate to Israel. A Palestinian, whose ancestors grew up in Israel and who were forced out during the 1947 war, can not emigrate to Israel. Please explain how this is not racist.

Then please explain who here is attached to his own reality. You seem to want to twist everything this way or that depending on the question. You deny that Israel is the occupying power in Gaza, yet you also deny that Hamas has sovereignty. Who does have soverignty, then?
 
so because some palestinians want no Israel at all gives you the right to set settlements on their land?



UH -- how is the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem defined as "Palestinian Land" ???

What is the difference between the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem (a 'settlement' of Jews on specific lands that were located on the other side of the 1949 Rhodes Lines) and a 'settlement' of Jews in, say, the environs of Hebron, which had a Jewish population until they were massacred and forced to vacate in 1929?

How is it "their land" ? I have never understood this claim.
 
I, having a Jewish mother, could emigrate to Israel. A Palestinian, whose ancestors grew up in Israel and who were forced out during the 1947 war, can not emigrate to Israel. Please explain how this is not racist.

Hmm, maybe I will give it a try.

First, lets clarify the facts. There are two ways to emigrate to Israel. One is open only to Jews, while the other is no different than that of most countries. The Palestinian in your example could try the other. I would agree that, due to the enmity between sides, this maybe hard to achieve, but it is possible. The other way has to do with the badly-named 'law of return', which guarantees Jews and their descendants an (almost) automatic right for citizenship.

The law of return does discriminate between Jew and non Jews. However, this does not necessarily means that it is racist. This is part of a more general question, namely, is any type of discrimination racist. I assume your are employed. Does your employer have a policy of affirmative action hiring? If so, does this mean that your employer is racist? He is clearly using discriminatory criteria for hiring. In my opinion, this question is intimately tied to any discussion regarding the law of return.

The rational behind the law of return is that the state of Israel should supply a safe heaven to any Jew which feels unsafe, or unwelcome, in his own country. I do not want to get into a historical discussion here, but Jews were periodically persecuted, in practically every place, throughout the last two millenia. The last century was one of the worst. To emphasize this, a comparison of the demographic of Jewish populations in 1900 and 2000, will show that almost all of the world Jewish population was driven out of their homes during that period. Prior to the establishment of Israel many suffering Jews had no where to go, as no country have shown the will to absorb then in large numbers. Due to that history, the leaders of Israel believed that one of their duties was to allow to any Jew a place to go to in a time of need. The law of return was meant to do just that.

I do think that there is some place to discuss whether the law is sometimes misused by various Israeli governments and Jewish organizations. For instance using the law just for demographic reasons is wrong. However, I still think that until such a time when antisemitism is no longer with us, some type of such a law is needed. You may ask why? Well, without a legal framework, any attempt of Israel to rescue suffering Jews can be easily delayed/forestalled by an appeal to the Israeli supreme court. I have no doubt that there will be groups which would do just that for various political reasons.

You may also ask whether this law does serve the goal it was created to serve. Sometimes it does, as the following recent story shows:
Bin Yisrael fell silent at this point, as revealing the details of how his family came to Israel is strictly forbidden. Israeli military classification prohibits the publication of any such details; all Bin Yisrael reveals is that following the hand-grenade incident, his wife informed him that she would not spend one more day in Yemen, and the next day Rabbi Bin Yisrael informed her that they would be leaving for Israel. He told his wife, along with his eldest daughter Esther, not to reveal this information to anyone but to say that they were all travelling to America to visit family. He sold his car for half its worth, and bought a new Yemeni oven for making bread, packed his things, and then he and the family went to a hotel in Sanaa where they awaited the signal from the Jewish Agency for Israel [JAFI]. When the family eventually arrived in Israel, they were greeted at Ben Gurion Airport by Israeli officials, members of JAFI, and members of the press. At the press conference [held there] Bin Yisrael said “Thank God we arrived safely. We are safe now. We have nothing against the Yemeni government; our problem lies only with the militants.”
In case you are interest in the current plight of Yemeni Jews, you can find more here.

To summarize my view on this matter. The law or return does discriminate between Jews and non-Jews, and is sometimes misused by Israeli governments. However, this law stems from a long and sad history of Jewish life in the diaspora, which have shown that Jews are persecuted often. Moreover, at that times, the world typically does not give the help needed. I believe this history justifies a special rule which can allow Jews an automatic safe heaven. This is, in my opinion, somewhat similar to various affirmative action policies. This is also the reason that I have not bothered to point out that various other countries, such as Ireland and Germany have special rules of citizenship, which are not that dissimilar. (It is not that relevant to my point.)

Finally, I suspect that many of you may want to reply by raising other issues, such as some of Israel policies on the west-bank. Please refrain from doing so. Most of these issues do merit their own discussion. However, the point I was raising here is limited to the law of return, the rational behind the it, and the reason I do not object to its existence.
 
Now, previously you admitted that Israel builds settlements in the west bank in which Jews are allowed to live and in which Palestinian arabs are not allowed to live. Please explain how this is not racist.

I, having a Jewish mother, could emigrate to Israel. A Palestinian, whose ancestors grew up in Israel and who were forced out during the 1947 war, can not emigrate to Israel. Please explain how this is not racist.

Then please explain who here is attached to his own reality. You seem to want to twist everything this way or that depending on the question. You deny that Israel is the occupying power in Gaza, yet you also deny that Hamas has sovereignty. Who does have soverignty, then?

My friend with the Jewish mother, you toss around accusations like racism and apartheid and genocide and apply them irresponsibly to Israel in order to try to demonize a country that transports Israeli medical doctors to Third World and developing nations providing free medical care. A nation that resettled thousands of Ethiopians and which has Arab members of the Knesset and Arab justices of the Israeli Supreme Court, and which has street and traffic signs in Arabic in order to accommodate the Arab population. So, please, be more responsible with your language. Not too far fro Israel is Saudi Arabia, which has "Muslim-Only" roads and where Jews and Christians are banned. Now, who is practicing apartheid and racism?
 
My friend with the Jewish mother, you toss around accusations like racism and apartheid and genocide and apply them irresponsibly to Israel in order to try to demonize a country that transports Israeli medical doctors to Third World and developing nations providing free medical care. A nation that resettled thousands of Ethiopians and which has Arab members of the Knesset and Arab justices of the Israeli Supreme Court, and which has street and traffic signs in Arabic in order to accommodate the Arab population. So, please, be more responsible with your language. Not too far fro Israel is Saudi Arabia, which has "Muslim-Only" roads and where Jews and Christians are banned. Now, who is practicing apartheid and racism?

I will stop accusing Israel of racism and Apartheid when they stop confiscating Arab private property to build Jew-only settlements.
 
Your allegation that Israel is racist has no substance
[/quote]

Do any Israeli-Arabs live in the West Banks settlements? No.

Are there roads and bridges in the West Bank made for Israeli Jews only? Yes.

Israeli Arabs get about 50% as much educational funds as Israeli Jews.

It is legal for school and communities to prevent someone from joining, just because they are Arab.

These are facts. They are not in dispute. Israel is a racist state.
 
The greenhouses--about 400 of them--were built by the Israeli settlers in Gaza, and, subsequently, purchased for several millions of dollars by mostly Jewish philanthropists who proceeded to give the greenhouses to the Gazans. They were then looted, torched and destroyed.

Unless you want to address the actual point can you please keep out of the way? I asked him who built greenhouses for terrorists.
 
My friend with the Jewish mother, you toss around accusations like racism and apartheid and genocide and apply them irresponsibly to Israel in order to try to demonize a country that transports Israeli medical doctors to Third World and developing nations providing free medical care. A nation that resettled thousands of Ethiopians and which has Arab members of the Knesset and Arab justices of the Israeli Supreme Court, and which has street and traffic signs in Arabic in order to accommodate the Arab population. So, please, be more responsible with your language. Not too far fro Israel is Saudi Arabia, which has "Muslim-Only" roads and where Jews and Christians are banned. Now, who is practicing apartheid and racism?

waffle....distractions, smoke and mirrors...


are you capable of addressing an issue?....here it is again..

you say that the claim that Israel is racist is without foundation.

when confronted by this...

"Now, previously you admitted that Israel builds settlements in the west bank in which Jews are allowed to live and in which Palestinian arabs are not allowed to live. Please explain how this is not racist."

you retreat to a slur accusing people of demonising Israel....this is a tired old tactic on this forum son. Its been tried before please think up another approach....hey, how about the appproach of addressing the point?
 

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