paximperium
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- May 30, 2008
- Messages
- 10,696
So why are you bothering everyone with your nonsense?
So to believe in Jesus, you must first believe in Jesus? Do you see how inane that is?
Can theists be rational?
- Thread starter fls
- Start date
kurious_kathy
Master Poster
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 2,142
God did not originally make us as fallen creatures, we were made holy like him but after Adam and Eve sinned we all suffered. It truly is our fallen nature that gets us in trouble but Jesus has promised to make all things new again for all who come to know him. Better to be found in Christ and live by the promises of God than to get hung up on on these lies in this fallen world. God's truth can make us free but we must receive Christ before we can be part of God's family again.
here's another great article you can download if you want to. 25 Truths that matter... http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=55
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
- Joined
- May 1, 2005
- Messages
- 12,512
You seem to have a funny idea what "tons means".
Let Randi help you here.
I was lucky to watch him make the video.
Paul
kurious_kathy
Master Poster
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 2,142
I'm sorry to have to tell you this but I'm not the one getting it wrong.
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
- Joined
- May 1, 2005
- Messages
- 12,512
That is funny, I was told that your so-called god remembers sins for no more then 6 generations, and good deeds for a thousand. Funny, I think it has been more then 6 generations by now, don't you.
So curious.
Paul
paximperium
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- May 30, 2008
- Messages
- 10,696
And I'm sorry to inform you that I take your advice and claims as serious as a five year old's claim of seeing Santa Clause fly through the air.
schlitt
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2007
- Messages
- 1,081
The problem with the statements you made is that they are already based in the framework of an unsupported hypothesis.
To understand why Atheists do not believe or take you seriously when you make statements of the sort that you believe to be true, you need to look at the whole picture.
Your statements assert multiple things as if they are fact.
Such as:
-There were real people Adam and Eve, who lived in the garden of Eden and who sinned.
-Because they sinned human kind is “fallen”.
-Adam and Eve were created by God.
-There is a God.
Now if an Atheist were to agree with you that these things are facts, as you believe them to be, then they would agree with your subsequent assertions and they would not be arguing with you on this discussion board.
But clearly Atheists do not consider these things to be fact. Atheists consider that these things might be simply made up by the people who wrote the bible and therefore untrue. You, me, everyone knows that people throughout history have made and continue to make things up and claim that they are true.
A good example of this is how you feel about the ancient Hindu texts, or any other religion that you do not believe. (There are around 4000 different religions on earth, you do not believe 3,999 of them)
So the question then becomes; why do you believe the bible is true, while Atheists do not?
Ask yourself this question seriously: Considering 99.9% of people who live in the country of Jordan are Muslims – if you were born into Jordan, would you be a Muslim and believe the Quran is divinely inspired?
If you answer that question honestly, the answer is obviously yes.
So just being born into a country where the majority of religious people believe the Bible is divinely inspired, is clearly not a good enough reason to accept it as true.
So what could we do to make sure that we are not believing in something false. (For example how you feel about a Hindu, or a Muslim, or a Baha'i etc)
The best thing we can do is look for evidence that would prove that the bible is not just one of the many religious books that have been made up.
So, how would we go about doing this?
We need to learn the history of the bible, who wrote it, and see if there is any evidence that they actually were divinely inspired or not. Unfortunately for us, 1700 years after our bible was compiled and a few centuries longer than that after its component books were written, there is absolutely no way for us to tell if the authors were simply making it up, or embellishing events, or telling the truth.
What we do know is that people have a tendency to create religions and lie about things.
We must understand that it is possible the bible is just like any other religious text. Made up by people who wanted to portray a certain viewpoint.
(How many books by biblical scholars have you read about the history of the Bible? Ask yourself honestly, how much do you really know about the book that you just accept is true?)
So the difference between you and the atheists here is; you believe the bible is the word of god, and therefore true. You have already made a conclusion and have therefore closed your mind off to any further possibilities.
Whereas us Atheists are open to any possibility, as long as there is good reason to believe it. We do not believe the bible is the word of a God, because there is no evidence to show that it is any different to the the Quran, book of Mormon, Hindu texts etc. It seems likely that the bible is simply just one of the many collections of myths about a God written by primitive people before we understood much about how things work. (Before scientific disciplines like chemistry, biology, astronomy, physics etc)
Before humanity knew about microorganisms like viruses and bacteria people throughout history believed that sickness was cause be Demons, or God's will. We now know better. Religion and the ideas contained in ancient scriptures were attempts at explaining the mysterious workings of nature. We now know better through building knowledge, experimenting, interrogating nature and basing our conclusions on evidence. (Science)
It seems to us Atheists that you have come to the conclusion that the bible is true simply because you want it to be true. On faith.
But faith is not a good thing. Faith (belief without evidence, or even in spite of contrary evidence) is what drives people to fly planes into buildings.
Faith is what drives people to swallow poison on the promise that they are hitching a ride on a comet.
We know that people have a tendency to believe things that are incorrect, but can be unable to realize that what they believe is incorrect. There is a possibility that you are one of these people Kathy. There is a possibility that I am one of these people.
But surely the best thing we can do is ask for solid evidence with the goal pf protecting ourselves against holding false beliefs?
Atheists do not believe you when you say: “mankind is fallen”, because Atheists do not accept the assumptions that you do. Your framework for thinking about these matters is based in conclusions and 100% certainty in things you cannot possibly be certain of.
Last edited:
You know what's really cute about God? He has the exact same cognitive biases as humans.
Linda
Of course. We are made in His Image.
cj x
Which is most convenient for us. Imagine how we'd have got on if he'd made us in his pet's image?
Linda
L The Detective
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2008
- Messages
- 285
You think he has left tons of evidence, and I think he has left no real evidence. You think that I am blind, and I think that you have chosen to believe in a truth for emotional reasons. Since we both can't be right, then wouldn't it be great if the one who is wrong would change their mind? That's a question that we can both agree to answer yes to, isn't it?
I agree that we should all be honest with ourselves. I am trying to do just that, and I hope you are too.
schlitt
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2007
- Messages
- 1,081
Of course. We are made in His Image.
cj x
I have always found this amusing.
Made in his image; how so?
God has five fingers and toes?
He has self replicating cells with DNA in the nucleus?
His Genome is littered with fossilized fragments of once useful genes like ours?
Oh, so it is not talking about physicality...
OK, so it must be talking about our nature. So why if she was made in the image of someone infinitely wise did Eve eat the fruit?
Oh, so we have free will. But God has free will and he wouldn't do such a thing, so what is the difference between the nature of God and Eve, who was supposedly made in his image?
Being made in God's image is completely meaningless.
You can however picture some unimaginative bronze age man thinking "We are smart and can build things, the thing that built us must be and even smarter and even stronger version of us!".
Religion is childish. It's tenets so often only make sense if you do not explore all of the logical ramifications. Fortunately for religion, most people are not good at seeing the big picture when receiving a new piece of information.
Herzblut
Master Poster
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2006
- Messages
- 2,234
It makes sense if you assign a finite value to human dignity, or human life if you want. That makes it a price, and then the price of two human lives is twice the price of one.
The German Constitutional Court has decided differently and declared null and void an anti-terror law which had legalized shooting the plane. That state law was considered anti-constitutional referring to Article 1 "Human dignity is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority." Authorities reducing a human to a "mere means to an end" violate its dignity, says the court almost literally referring to old Kant's Categorical Imperative.
Belz...
Fiend God
Examples would help. So far you're claiming that there's evidence.
Really ? I must've missed it. Where, outside of the bibble, can one find such "proof" ?
No, it's god's fault for not making it clearer or making me smarter.
Gee, that's convenient.
Belz...
Fiend God
You mean he didn't see it coming ?
For no foreseeable reason.
Gosh, this makes no sense, whatsoever.
L The Detective
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2008
- Messages
- 285
That's a good point... I suppose if we say human lives have infinite value, then technically 1 life = 100 = 10,000. I'm not sure if I like that... although I think I agree with the German law, but in the case of the plane and the missle, I think you have to consider inaction to be the same as another choice. If there's 2 choices that both directly lead to death, and those choices are definitely the only ones you have, I think anyone would say that the choice that results in less death is preferable.
kurious_kathy
Master Poster
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 2,142
Well it is kind of ironic that the evidence can usually only be seen through the eyes of faith for the most part, but there is plenty of other physical evidence too but you seem to miss it if you have no faith.
I do not understand why people can't accept God on his own terms before he makes himself known to us, but that is the way it appears to be. So how do we overcome doubts and fears and realize faith is an important part of our lives?
P.S. I would like to refer anyone who is open to several articles and audios available on the topic of "Evidence For The Existence of God" http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=46
Last edited:
What's the difference between "evidence that can only be seen through the eyes of faith" and "nonsense that you only believe if you've been brainwashed"?
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
I wonder, Kathy, can a person who is good, and pure but who does not believe in God, go to heaven? A person who is selfless, giving, loving, one who donates time and energy and money to help others in need, and yet, is an Atheist, go to heaven when they die?
Does a vile murderer and rapist of women and children, but yet who believes in god, do they go to hell? Does a person who preaches fear and hate instead of love and compassion go to heaven instead of hell if they truly believe?
Does a vile murderer and rapist of women and children, but yet who believes in god, do they go to hell? Does a person who preaches fear and hate instead of love and compassion go to heaven instead of hell if they truly believe?
L The Detective
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2008
- Messages
- 285
Yes... that is interesting, isn't it. And the same is true for other religions as well... that is, you won't see the evidence for their religions if you don't have faith in them, either. At some point, you have to ask yourself if the evidence you are seeing is really there, of if you are just warping your perspective in order to allow yourself to believe in something that you *want* to believe in.
I don't think anyone else here will attempt to answer this question honestly, so I will. I think the answer to your question is to "stop thinking," am I right? You don't really need to think to have faith... faith is all about believing in something that feels right, and thinking will only continue to cause those doubts and fears you spoke of.
Does this answer make sense to you?