Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[DOC]

I agree with you. Secrecy is a halmark of cults.

Oh, yes, Jesus was so secret as He died nude in front of everyone. And of course he never gave sermons to thousands, or was paraded down the street of Jerusalem on a donkey, or walked amidst the lepers, the sick, and the downtrodden.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Of course, to truly cement their credibility as witnesses, they'd have to add:

Your honor we have 4 witnesses to the murder.
witness1: Yes the killer was a black man, and he was outside the building with a gun. I sell crack to elementary-school kids.
Witness2: Yes, there were two white killers, and they were inside the building with guns. I'm dying of alcohol-induced cirrhosis.
Witness3: The killer was a white guy and he had a knife. I pimped out my wife to my boss to get a promotion.
Witness4: There were 2 black killers, and they were inside the building with guns. The white dove shall not fly until you drown your vacuum cleaners in honey mead.

(That would be Embarrassing Facts About Themselves and a Hard Saying.)

 

[joobz]

Oh, yes, Jesus was so secret as He died nude in front of everyone. And of course he never gave sermons to thousands, or was paraded down the street of Jerusalem on a donkey, or walked amidst the lepers, the sick, and the downtrodden.

You said that cults keep secrets. You didn't say they keep everything secret. Mark clearly has the Messianic secret as a primary theme. Jesus kept that secret only to his closest followers.

Using your own logic, Jesus was a cult leader.

 

[joobz]

Of course, to truly cement their credibility as witnesses, they'd have to add:



(That would be Embarrassing Facts About Themselves and a Hard Saying.)

Excellent!

which makes the defendants claim all the more accurate.

 

[Akhenaten]

Oh, yes, Jesus was so secret as He died nude in front of everyone. And of course he never gave sermons to thousands, or was paraded down the street of Jerusalem on a donkey, or walked amidst the lepers, the sick, and the downtrodden.

These statements are, of course dependant on the New Testament writers having told the truth. Do you have any evidence that this is the case?

 

[Simon39759]

Oh, yes, Jesus was so secret as He died nude in front of everyone. And of course he never gave sermons to thousands, or was paraded down the street of Jerusalem on a donkey, or walked amidst the lepers, the sick, and the downtrodden.

Arguably, he did not have much choice in the matter. People did not ask him if dying on the cross [nude in front of everyone] was ok with him.

And most of his preaching was done in rural backwater villages, far away from the authorities.
When questioned by these authorities, he often seemed to dodge the question 'Give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar', for example, is quite vague compared to the obviousness of a military occupation.

 

[DOC]

And most of his preaching was done in rural backwater villages, far away from the authorities.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues...

Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria...

Mat 4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and [from] Decapolis, and [from] Jerusalem, and [from] Judaea, and [from] beyond Jordan.

____

And then there was the sermon to at least 5000 (loaves and fishes miracle sermon) which was probably actually over 7000 people since they only counted the men in the crowd.

And there was the time when Jesus was at a house and there was such a crowd that a sick person had to be lowered through the roof down to Jesus because there was so many people.

 

[DOC]

These statements are, of course dependant on the New Testament writers having told the truth. Do you have any evidence that this is the case?

http://books.google.com/books?id=PC...Geisler+10+reasons&client=firefox-a#PPA275,M1

 

[DOC]

I agree with you. Secrecy is a halmark of cults.

Originally Posted by wiki on Gospel of mark

Two important themes of Mark are the Messianic secret and the obtuseness of the disciples. In Mark, Jesus often commands secrecy regarding aspects of his identity and certain actions.[6] Jesus uses parables to explain his message and fulfill prophecy (4:10-12). At times, the disciples have trouble understanding the parables, but Jesus explains what they mean, in secret (4:13-20, 4:33-34). They also fail to understand the implication of the miracles that he performs before them.[1]

Jesus probably used parables for several reasons. One is because they are interesting. Two, because the visual aspect of them makes them easier to remember. And Three, the visual aspect of them makes it easier for uneducated illiterate people to understand.

And the wording above about Jesus explaining this to the apostles in "secret" is a joke. If a teacher uses an analogy about something, and after class I tell him that I didn't quite understand the analogy and to explain it further; and he does so. It would be ridiculous for me to tell someone that the teacher told me additional information in secret.

Also the term Messianic Secret above implies something derogatory when in fact there are logical explanations for why Jesus would not want to reveal this too soon to too many people.

Some of these explanations are given below. From Wiki's article on the Messianic secret:

"It is also reasonable to believe that Christ might want to suppress public fervor about himself until the opportune time. According to the Gospel, he was already a celebrity in Palestine. He might want to retain some measure of anonymity in order to be able to move about Judea without a multitude of followers.[3] Equally, events like the Bar Kokhba revolt showed that, at least in many Jewish minds, the concept of Messiah was linked to violent revolution and political freedom from Rome (even the Gospels raise this possibility in Simon Zealotes). Possibly Jesus suppressed his claims to Messiahship to prevent a revolution until the real meaning of his position was made clear in his death.

* Theological explanations: a prominent example is proposed by Wilhelm Wrede.[1] Quite simply, it was not the proper time for him to be revealed as such yet. He knew when he had to go to the court and then be crucified. -In Mark 8:30 Jesus, “Then strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.” Jesus’ messianic mission cannot be understood apart from the cross, which the disciples did not yet understand (vs. 31-33 and ch. 9 vs. 30-32) In v.31 It says, “and he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. And Jesus said get behind me Satan. For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Also in Mark 9:30-32 it states,” and he did not want anyone to know it. For he taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him.” It seems by looking at this passages it would be illogical to think that the author of Mark added these Messianic secrets so as to claim why Jesus was the Messiah, but nobody knew about it. We can see that after every time Jesus said not to tell the others about how he was the Messiah, he gives the explanation of why. He tells them that they should tell no one because for them to have proclaimed Jesus as Messiah at this point would have only furthered the misunderstanding that the Messiah was to be a political-military deliverer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_secret

 

[Hokulele]

And the wording above about Jesus explaining this to the apostles in "secret" is a joke. If a teacher uses an analogy about something, and after class I tell him that I didn't quite understand the analogy and to explain it further; and he does so. It would be ridiculous for me to tell someone that the teacher told me additional information in secret.

Nope. Mark actually makes it quite clear:

And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."

Those who are "outside" are deliberately kept in the dark.

You know, you really should read this bible of yours some day.

 

[joobz]

DOC, keeping secrets is not the same thing as keeping EVERYTHING secret. That's the whole point. Jesus had two sets of messages, those outside and those in. Cult like, don't you think?

Jesus condones slavery, asks his followers to practice ritual symbolic cannibalism, keeps secrets like a cult leader, makes false prophecies(Mark 9:1). I seriously can't understand why you think he's god.

ETA:

Also the term Messianic Secret above implies something derogatory when in fact there are logical explanations for why Jesus would not want to reveal this too soon to too many people

So, When Joseph Smith keep secrets, it's cult like. When Jesus keeps secrets, it's godly.

 

[DOC]

You know, you really should read this bible of yours some day.

I could say the exact thing for countless posts (regarding the bible) I've corrected of others, but I choose not to. I do admit I don't have perfect knowledge of the Bible, do you? I also don't have perfect knowledge of the city I've lived in for many years but that doesn't mean I don't know a lot about it.

Let's just say I have enough knowledge of the Bible to keep 140 posters interested in a thread 57 pages long in a forum that is one of the least viewed.

 

[DOC]

Nope. Mark actually makes it quite clear:


Originally Posted by Mark 4:10-12, RSV
And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."

Those who are "outside" are deliberately kept in the dark.

You know, you really should read this bible of yours some day.

Actually the Mark verse in the "Revised Standard Version" translation you used makes it quite unclear and in my opinion even misrepresents the verse in the part I bolded. I noticed you didn't use the King James version. Mathew 13 verse 10 - 16 makes it clearer. I'll bring in as time permits.

And they weren't deliberately kept in the dark in this verse. They were in the dark because of their own dull minds as Isaiah foretold. This is shown in Matthew Chapter 13 verse 14.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I could say the exact thing for countless posts (regarding the bible) I've corrected of others, but I choose not to. I do admit I don't have perfect knowledge of the Bible, do you? I also don't have perfect knowledge of the city I've lived in for many years but that doesn't mean I don't know a lot about it.

Red herring alert - what's knowledge about a city got to do with whether or not you've read a book? We're not discussing knowledge about a certain title, we're discussing whether or not you're read it. Two different things altogether.

Actually the Mark verse in the "Revised Standard Version" translation you used makes it quite unclear and in my opinion even misrepresents the verse in the part I bolded. I noticed you didn't use the King James version. Mathew 13 verse 10 - 16 makes it clearer. I'll bring in as time permits.

I'm not familiar with the KJV, but as far as I know, it's got a bad reputation as a 'fundie babble' due to its rampant editing of embarrassing mistakes, scripture that stands in contrast to what modern Christians believe, and prophecies gone awry. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

How do you know your version of the Bible is the right one? Heck, why do so many different versions exist when the Bible is supposed to be divinely inspired?

And they weren't deliberately kept in the dark in this verse. They were in the dark because of their own dull minds as Isaiah foretold. This is shown in Matthew Chapter 13 verse 14.

Matthew 13:14 doesn't say their minds are dull.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.


Unless you take it litterally enough to believe it states that they never understood anything, which is just plain silly.

Let's just say I have enough knowledge of the Bible to keep 140 posters interested in a thread 57 pages long in a forum that is one of the least viewed.

1. Go here.
2. Locate this thread in the list.
3. To the right, there will be a post count indicator. If you click it, you get a record of posters, along with number of posts from each individual.
4. Note how most of the posters have posted 1-3 times and then left, which is not commonly referred to as being 'kept occupied'. Five posters of over a hundred have more than 200 posts in this thread. One of them is you.
5. Reconsider.

Making a fool of yourself by persistent trolling does not imply knowledge. I'm sure a record number of people would show if I showed up naked come next TAM and gave a speech on quantum theory, but the crowd would most likely be attracted to my out-of-form nudity than the contents of my speech.

 

[zooterkin]

I could say the exact thing for countless posts (regarding the bible) I've corrected of others, but I choose not to.

Very wise.

The point is that you refer constantly to the bible as the authority on everything, yet you clearly have not read the whole book, not even some of the more relevant parts. I would suggest (in fact, I think I have already suggested this before) that you go away and read the bible, and decide what you actually believe, rather than continually reacting to the latest inconsistency which has been pointed out to you. Learning what constitutes reason, evidence and logic would my next suggestion, but we shouldn't expect miracles.

On the other hand, you can not demand that people who do not believe in (any) god must read all of your particular holy book before they can make any statement about what's there (though in practice it seems some of the atheists here know a lot more about it than you do). By that logic, you cannot claim that Mormons, Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists are wrong until you have read their texts.

You are the one making the claim (in this thread, that there is evidence for knowing that the New Testament writers told the truth); you have to provide support for it.

I do admit I don't have perfect knowledge of the Bible, do you? I also don't have perfect knowledge of the city I've lived in for many years but that doesn't mean I don't know a lot about it.

Let's see; suppose I claimed that the city I lived in was the most just and beautiful city in the world, and was created by angels, and everyone there was living in luxury, and that there was no other city like it in the world, which fact proved the other claims to be true. If someone then took me round the backstreets of this city, showing me the ugly side, and where the poor people struggled to survive, and demonstrated how it had been built by men, and then took me to another city where the inhabitants made the same unsupported claims; well, then, I might just start questioning some of the things I said about my city.

Let's just say I have enough knowledge of the Bible to keep 140 posters interested in a thread 57 pages long in a forum that is one of the least viewed.

Still playing this silly numbers game? Doronshadmi has a thread in R&P (where this thread belongs) of about the same length, where he shows he has no knowledge at all of mathematics. You are showing similar ignorance of the bible, logic, reason, evidence (the very statement I'm replying to demonstrates your understanding of the last three).

 

[zooterkin]

Actually the Mark verse in the "Revised Standard Version" translation you used makes it quite unclear and in my opinion even misrepresents the verse in the part I bolded. I noticed you didn't use the King James version. Mathew 13 verse 10 - 16 makes it clearer. I'll bring in as time permits.

Bring it in? You are aware that that most of the versions of the bible are available online, aren't you? See http://www.biblegateway.com/ for example.

Why do you view the KJV as authoritative? It does have arguably some of the best prose in the English language, but I don't know it is regarded as the most accurate translation. You do know the bible wasn't written in English originally, don't you?

And they weren't deliberately kept in the dark in this verse. They were in the dark because of their own dull minds as Isaiah foretold. This is shown in Matthew Chapter 13 verse 14.

So, you belief in prophecy; how does that work, then? Is that one of your pieces of evidence for the New Testament being true?

 

[DOC]

I'm not familiar with the KJV {King James version}, but as far as I know, it's got a bad reputation as a 'fundie babble' due to its rampant editing of embarrassing mistakes, scripture that stands in contrast to what modern Christians believe, and prophecies gone awry.

I noticed you left no sources for the above -- but it would seem that all translations have critics? What translation of the bible do you prefer?

For example here are some harsh criticisms of the Revised Standard Version translation Hokulele used:

"There are two very obvious but nevertheless weighty reasons for condemning this version as an unreliable and unacceptable translation for the reverent Bible-loving Christian. First the Revision Committee, which did the actual work of translation, was composed largely of scholars who hold definitely heretical views such as cannot be countenanced by true conservative Christians and students and it is evident that the personal views of these men have been introduced into the text of this new translation. Second, the sponsoring organization and copyright owner, the National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. (which absorbed the Federal Council of Churches of Christ in America) has, since 1908, proved to be unbiblical in its objectives, socialistic in its aims and destructively modernistic in its doctrine. To this organization through its Division of Christian Education is committed the propaganda for the sale and distribution of the "New Bible." True Christians know too well the character of this sponsoring, propagandizing organization to approve it as a trustworthy guide in determining and safeguarding the text of Holy Scripture.

The previous excerpt was from the article entitled:

A Critique of the Revised Standard Version

Editor's note: This symposium is a brief expression of criticism of the Revised Standard Version edited by Dr. C. F. Lincoln and prepared by several members of the Faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary, with the advice and counsel of the entire Faculty.

C. P. Lincoln, A.M., Th.D.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/rsv-bibsac.html

 

[Mojo]

Let's just say I have enough knowledge of the Bible to keep 140 posters interested in a thread 57 pages long in a forum that is one of the least viewed.

Let's just say you have a hole and a spade.

 

[joobz]

New international version

10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

New American Standard Bible

10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"

11Jesus answered them, "(A)To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12"(B)For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while (C)seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'(D)YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15(E)FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' 16"(F)But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

King James Version

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Pick your tranlation, they all say the same thing:
Jesus doesn't give them the "truth" because those on the outside aren't as good as his inner circle.

Much like how a cult leader will keep his cultists closer than those on the outside.

 

[joobz]

Thanks for this DOC.
You provided me with my laugh for the day.

For example here are some harsh criticisms of the Revised Standard Version translation Hokulele used:

"There are two very obvious but nevertheless weighty reasons for condemning this version as an unreliable and unacceptable translation for the reverent Bible-loving Christian. First the Revision Committee, which did the actual work of translation, was composed largely of scholars who hold definitely heretical views such as cannot be countenanced by true conservative Christians and students and it is evident that the personal views of these men have been introduced into the text of this new translation.

Notice that the critique doesn't speak of what is TRUE. But rather the people who did the translations may/may not have heretical views.

In other words, this translation is heretical because it is heretical.

Second, the sponsoring organization and copyright owner, the National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. (which absorbed the Federal Council of Churches of Christ in America) has, since 1908, proved to be unbiblical in its objectives, socialistic in its aims and destructively modernistic in its doctrine.

HA HA HA HA!!!! It's a bad translation because they be commies!!!
I wonder if the author of this critique actually understands what Jesus' message was.

To this organization through its Division of Christian Education is committed the propaganda for the sale and distribution of the "New Bible." True Christians know too well the character of this sponsoring, propagandizing organization to approve it as a trustworthy guide in determining and safeguarding the text of Holy Scripture.

True christians know? Eh? Which are these again? The ones that believe they eat the body and blood of christ or those that don't? ARe the true christians the ones who condone slaverly (like jesus did) or the ones who don't? I keep forgetting...