Are Most Conservatives Really Conservatives

[Oliver]

I would say that a lot Americans are opposed to more taxes because they think the government is incompetent and already gets enough of our money to waste. They see many large government run programs unsuccessful or severely lacking in their stated goals vs results. The ones that do work are trillions in debt. At least that's my take. Plus you will likely get vastly different answers regarding this based on the state the person is from. If you tell someone from California, NY, or NJ to pay more taxes they might have an aneurysm.

I still wonder why lowering Taxes somehow is a conservative thing when in fact, outside the US this mindset differs quite a lot.

 

[The Painter]

I'd like to hear the conservatives actually make a case, using these principles, that Bush was more conservative than Clinton.

What makes you think Bush was/is a conservative? In fact Obama called him a socialist;

I did think it might be useful to point out that it wasn't under me that we started buying a bunch of shares of banks, " President Obama said. "It wasn't on my watch. And it wasn't on my watch that we passed a massive new entitlement -- the prescription drug plan -- without a source of funding.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1546879/is_barack_obama_a_socialist.html


Bush was neither a conservative or a socialist. He was middle of the road.

PS. wasn't the drug program he references Ted Kennedy's baby?

 

[h.g.Whiz]

I should probably put this in my sig to save time:

What is it with Americans and taxes? You've got one of the lowest tax rates in the industrialized, developed world and yet you still complain about them. Get over it already.

I don't have a problem with paying taxes, I just think tax revenue should be spent wisely.

 

[pgwenthold]

I'd like to see a conservative that would call bush a "conservative"

That wasn't the question. Thanks for trying, though.

 

[mikeyx]

What makes you think Bush was/is a conservative? In fact Obama called him a socialist;



http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1546879/is_barack_obama_a_socialist.html


Bush was neither a conservative or a socialist. He was middle of the road.

PS. wasn't the drug program he references Ted Kennedy's baby?

If you speak of W, then no, he was an idiot. Cheney, a war profiteer.

 

[INRM]

Patsy,

-Support for the United States Constitution

Only if they have some strange definition of support that equals trample and gut.

Which is kind of my point. They view it with disdain and do everything they can to erode it. Not that Clinton did any better (he passed CALEA which required telecom companies to configure their systems to be able to be remotely eavesdropped on by the FBI, he was involved in FileGate, among other things)

-Respect for life

Hm, only if that means unborn life. Once you are out of the womb, you are on your own/fair game.

It is sad how true that actually is.

-Less government

Except that bit of the government that they wish to trot around the globe carrying guns, and the bit that intrudes into the bedroom, yes?

Not to mention the other part of the government (DIA/NSA) that goes around monitoring huge amounts of our phone-calls, e-mails, and internet transmissions.

-More Personal Responsibility.

Except for that bit about using corporations to pillage maximum personal profit while taking minimum personal responsibility, I see.

Interesting take on it...


Texas,

You need to define your terms:

Social Conservative?--Christian Right
Fiscal Conservative?---Club for Growth
Paleo-Conservative?---John Birch Society
Neoconservative?---- Red Diaper Babies
Conservative Libertarian?-- Cato Institute

What's Club for Growth, John Birch Society, and Cato Institute?


INRM

 

[quixotecoyote]

What's Club for Growth, John Birch Society, and Cato Institute?

Signs that you should probably become more familiar with the topic before you comment on conservatism.

 

[INRM]

quixotecoyote,

You know, I asked the question so I could get an answer, not so I could get some wiseguy quip.


INRM

 

[pipelineaudio]

quixotecoyote,

You know, I asked the question so I could get an answer, not so I could get some wiseguy quip.


INRM

Maybe some names would help

Social Conservative?--Barrack Obama
Fiscal Conservative?---Bill Clinton
Paleo-Conservative?---Most of my neighbors
Neoconservative?---- George Bush/Hillary Clinton
Conservative Libertarian?-- Penn & Teller/ Christopher Hitchens/ Frank Zappa

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Maybe some names would help

Social Conservative?--Barrack Obama
Fiscal Conservative?---Bill Clinton
Paleo-Conservative?---Most of my neighbors
Neoconservative?---- George Bush/Hillary Clinton
Conservative Libertarian?-- Penn & Teller/ Christopher Hitchens/ Frank Zappa

lol wut?

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Krohn's definition of conservatism employs a no true scotsman fallacy, I don't know why everyone is making a big deal about it.

 

[pipelineaudio]

lol wut?

Lol you

I couldn't think of a good living example of a bircher that didnt have so much baggage attached as to be ad ridiculum

 

[Ryokan]

Conservatives by definition are supposed to generally be people who want small government that doesn't end up intruding into people's private lives, and able to perform basic services with the rest done via the private sector.

Funny enough, that's originally the definition of being liberal, and still is in Europe

In my Norwegian dictionary, liberalism is defined as 'a political ideology that wants political, economical and religious freedom of the individual'.

As a member of the Norwegian liberal party, I stand for everything in your definition of conservatives.

Off topic, but an interesting footnote.

 

[Sefarst]

Maybe some names would help

Social Conservative?--Barrack Obama
Fiscal Conservative?---Bill Clinton
Paleo-Conservative?---Most of my neighbors
Neoconservative?---- George Bush/Hillary Clinton
Conservative Libertarian?-- Penn & Teller/ Christopher Hitchens/ Frank Zappa

How is Obama a social conservative? And Christopher Hitchens has identified himself in the past as a neoconservative.

 

[pipelineaudio]

How is Obama a social conservative?

Anti gay stance, anti-atheist stance, alliance with extreme religious bigots

And Christopher Hitchens has identified himself in the past as a neoconservative.

Weird, its hard to see how his positions line up that way.

 

[Sefarst]

Anti gay stance, anti-atheist stance, alliance with extreme religious bigots

He's also pro-choice and has made more concessions to the non-religious than I think any other president has.

Weird, its hard to see how his positions line up that way.

He's buddies with Wolfowitz, supports the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and thinks the US should possibly look to do even more intervention around the world against dictators and extremists. He's also a former Trotskyist/leftist which would lead me to believe he's not so libertarian as say Penn and Teller. It's hard to tell though, as Hitchens rarely talks about specific economic issues.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Anti gay stance, anti-atheist stance, alliance with extreme religious bigots

Pfff. Civil unions, repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell, repealing the Defense of Marriage Act, supporting the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, etc. make him anti-gay?

And what exactly is his anti-atheist stance beyond what every politician, both liberal and conservative, has?

 

[Sefarst]

Pfff. Civil unions, repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell, repealing the Defense of Marriage Act, supporting the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, etc. make him anti-gay?

And what exactly is his anti-atheist stance beyond what every politician, both liberal and conservative, has?

Isn't there a 1996 interview with Obama for a British newspaper where he says he's pro-gay marriage?

Also, wikipedia says that Obama's mother self-identified as an atheist according to her friends and Obama's sister said her mother was an agnostic. People have speculated that Obama himself is an atheist.

 

[Alt+F4]

Pfff. Civil unions, repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell, repealing the Defense of Marriage Act, supporting the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, etc. make him anti-gay?

Civil Union? Why should gays be satisfied with just that?

Obama hasn't repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell or the Defense of Marriage Act and I doubt he ever will.

As for employment non-discrimination, from today's New York Times:

In separate, strongly worded orders, two judges of the federal appeals court in California said that employees of their court were entitled to health benefits for their same-sex partners under the program that insures millions of federal workers.

But the federal Office of Personnel Management has instructed insurers not to provide the benefits ordered by the judges, citing a 1996 law, the Defense of Marriage Act.

If Obama isn't anti-gay why hasn't he done something about this?

Linky:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/13/us/politics/13benefits.html





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[lupus_in_fabula]

And Christopher Hitchens has identified himself in the past as a neoconservative.

That's weird because I could almost swear he adamantly denied being a conservative when presented as such during a presentation of him in a CNBC show (it might have been on Hardball). I remember him actually denying any obvious political affiliation. Although I notice you use the phrasing 'identified himself in the past'. Personally I think he only agreed with some limited neocon ideas, mainly that of the invasion of Iraq.