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Why Doctors Hate Science

More evidence that medical professionals (as a group) are excellent at gaming the system to maintain or increase their remuneration:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1069862
That's called the hidden tax paying for the uninsured. Cost shifting is one reason the US needs national health insurance. People often have no clue the people who can pay their bills pay for the unreimbursed care given to the people who do not pay their bills.

There's no gaming going on there. If the government mandates a hospital cannot turn a patient who cannot pay away from the ED, while that same mandate is unfunded, the cost accrues as an expense of doing business. I'm not quite sure what you think is going on here.
 
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Actually, I think the reason I generally provoke so much hostility when I bring up the issue of supplier induced demand with respect to provision of healthcare is that it threatens what most people would like to be true, but probably is not. i.e. people want to believe ....

:id:
 
I do wish I was worshiped as a god but the nurses keep me in line.
One of my favorite jokes (multiple sources) :
The Ranks of a Hospital

Surgeon:
Leaps tall buildings in a single bound
Is more productive than a train
Is faster than a speeding bullet
Walks on water
Talks with God

Internist:
Leaps short buildings in a single bound
Is more powerful than a switch engine
Is faster than a speeding BB
Walks on water if the sea is calm
Talks with God if special request is approved

General Practitioner:
Leaps short buildings with a running start and favorable winds
Is almost as powerful as a switch engine
Nurse Practitioners
Can fire a speeding bullet
Walks on water in an indoor swimming pool
Is occasionally addressed by God

Resident:
Barely clears a picket fence
Loses tug-of-war with a train
Can sometimes handle a gun without inflicting self-injury
Swims well
Talks with animals

Intern:
Makes high skid marks on a wall when trying to leap buildings
Is run over by a train
Is not issued ammunition
Dog paddles
Talks to walls

Medical Student:
Runs into buildings
Recognizes a train 2 out of 3 times
Wets himself with a water pistol
Cannot stay afloat without a life preserver
Mumbles to himself

Nurse:
Lifts buildings and walks under them
Kicks trains off the track
Catches speeding bullets with her teeth and eats them
Freezes water with a single glance
The Nurse IS God!!!!
 
That's called the hidden tax paying for the uninsured. Cost shifting is one reason the US needs national health insurance. People often have no clue the people who can pay their bills pay for the unreimbursed care given to the people who do not pay their bills.

There's no gaming going on there. If the government mandates a hospital cannot turn a patient who cannot pay away from the ED, while that same mandate is unfunded, the cost accrues as an expense of doing business. I'm not quite sure what you think is going on here.

You will note that the idea of the cost-sharing scheme was to attempt to contain costs, yet all that happened was the physicians made up for the loss of income from fewer visits by the cost-sharing insured group by charging their other insured patients with no cost-sharing for such things as longer stays in hospital.

If that's not gaming the system I don't know what is.
 
Ivor,

As I said, this was the result of an unusual situation that occurred in a certain area of England about 30 years ago.

I don't know what the situation is in England at present (or in America) but, in Australia, you can't get an appointment for a week because of a shortage of doctors (or too many people who imagine there is something wrong with them), so I doubt any thing like that happens here these days.

Also my posts are not intended to be hostile.

BJ
 
Nothing like a little snippet to mislead people:
A 2006 study of schizophrenia drugs found that old-line antipsychotics were as effective as pricey new ones.
Who ever wrote this nonsense editorial has not a clue!

They have not seen the side effects of Prolixon or Hladol (US names) or even worse the old line Navane and Thorazine.

First off, the symptom mangement oprofiles are different for the old line drugs, the level of side effects for effective treatment is abyssmal.

Second the side effects are horrific
-EPS: extra pyramidal side effects, also called 'neo-parkinsons', shaking, hand flapping, unintended spasms.
-Tardive dyskinesia: a permanent and life threatening motion disorder, pill rolling, tounge thrusts and eventually disrupts breathing.
-akesthesia: feeling of intense disconfort and need to move and pace, very uncomfortable
-dopaminergic effects: dry mouth (to the point where teeth rot), constipation, drooling in some people, shuffling gait, suppression of many systems.

So the editor who wrote that piece is full of crap.
 
Nothing like a little snippet to mislead people:

Who ever wrote this nonsense editorial has not a clue!

They have not seen the side effects of Prolixon or Hladol (US names) or even worse the old line Navane and Thorazine.

First off, the symptom mangement oprofiles are different for the old line drugs, the level of side effects for effective treatment is abyssmal.

Second the side effects are horrific
-EPS: extra pyramidal side effects, also called 'neo-parkinsons', shaking, hand flapping, unintended spasms.
-Tardive dyskinesia: a permanent and life threatening motion disorder, pill rolling, tounge thrusts and eventually disrupts breathing.
-akesthesia: feeling of intense disconfort and need to move and pace, very uncomfortable
-dopaminergic effects: dry mouth (to the point where teeth rot), constipation, drooling in some people, shuffling gait, suppression of many systems.

So the editor who wrote that piece is full of crap.

I assume he is referring to this:
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/63/10/1069

Some interesting letters and related articles linked to there too.

ETA: or possibly this:
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/ajhp/a...Mfnd41SyjpYvKM9lR!751744069!181195628!8091!-1
 
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You will note that the idea of the cost-sharing scheme was to attempt to contain costs, yet all that happened was the physicians made up for the loss of income from fewer visits by the cost-sharing insured group by charging their other insured patients with no cost-sharing for such things as longer stays in hospital.

If that's not gaming the system I don't know what is.
I'm not sure what cost sharing you are talking about, nor how it was supposed to "contain costs". Your version makes no sense.
 
I'm not sure what cost sharing you are talking about, nor how it was supposed to "contain costs". Your version makes no sense.

It's described in the article:

Mineworkers, steelworkers, and their families constituted over 80 percent of the patients seen by the RMG physicians. Steelworkers were privately insured by Blue Cross/Blue Shield and Metropolitan Life. Their benefits remained constant over the study period, 1976-1979. Following the introduction of cost sharing to the UMWA beneficiaries, average monthly visits to the group practice decreased by 13.5 percent. The major share of the decline was due to reduced utilization by UMWA-represented patients, whose visits decreased by 25.3 percent.
This setting has several advantages in a study examining how economic incentives influence physician behavior. First, the change in cost-sharing rates was an exogenous one, that is, it was beyond the influence of physicians. Second, the change that occurred was a large one, from no cost sharing to $7.50 per patient per visit. Third, physician membership in the RMG remained constant throughout our study period. And finally, miner and steelworker patients were fairly evenly distributed across physicians in the practice both before and after UMWA cost sharing. Thus, as a natural experiment, the experience of the RMG following the introduction of cost sharing to the UMWA offers a unique opportunity to study ways in which a substantial drop in utilization by one group of patients can affect physician
treatment patterns for all patients in the practice.

So the idea was that by making people pay a fee from their own money to see a physician, it would reduce the number of 'frivolous' visits and hence claims on their insurance policy, reducing overall costs.
 
Yes but that is discussing first and second generation, I think that Clozaril, Olanzapine, Zyprexa would be thrid generation, I can't read the full article or see if they even discuss side effect profiles.

they are also choosing the non-refractory patients and still no mention of why the pharmaceuticals charge 3x-5x more for the newere medications.

Thanks
Some interesting letters and related articles linked to there too.

ETA: or possibly this:
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/ajhp/a...Mfnd41SyjpYvKM9lR!751744069!181195628!8091!-1

Not working at this time, maybe later.

Other issues mentioned in the responses:

Compliance. 50% vs 70%
Methodology of effectiveness.
Reduction of negative symptoms.
Quality of life. Which I am curious how they rated the scales.
Use of SGA (and should include FGA) to treat bipolar disorder.
Marketing of drugs (a real issue)

Some suggestions that cost is more important than side effects! (Boo hiss, stupid researchers.) Let us ee the researcher take 10mg-30mg of Haldol.

No mention of tardive dyskenisia that I could see at all in the abstracts, or the comparative cost benefits fo side effects, those side effects are really bad. As in terrible. As in I wouldn't wish them on my next to worst enemy.

When we have people who pay $15 for an erection or get Botox fo $300 but grudging payment to people with a serious disability.

Arggghhh!
 
Yes but that is discussing first and second generation, I think that Clozaril, Olanzapine, Zyprexa would be thrid generation, I can't read the full article or see if they even discuss side effect profiles.

I read the full article. It focuses on differences (or not) in efficacy and effectiveness, rather than side-effects. And I agree with you that that issue (side-effects) is of far more concern to psychiatrists and patients than variations in efficacy. It's more than a little disturbing to see the avoidance of TD used as an example of non-science-based recommendations.

Linda
 
Just to be clear - I wasn't linking to those articles to say she had a point, I was just providing what I thought might be the source for her assertions.

I totally agree that side effect profiles are a major issue in prescribing any psychotropic medication.
 
Just to be clear - I wasn't linking to those articles to say she had a point, I was just providing what I thought might be the source for her assertions.

I totally agree that side effect profiles are a major issue in prescribing any psychotropic medication.

Yeah, I was referring to being disturbed by the author of the article (which I did not make clear).

Linda
 
Any larger or more recent studies?

No?

Figures.

There are more recent studies. Most (but not all) find exactly what would be expected if SID was occurring.

Here's another paper which discusses SID:

http://www.buseco.monash.edu.au/centres/che/pubs/wp123.pdf

3 Supplier Induced Demand: Evidence

3.1 Overseas Evidence

Like many theories in the physical sciences Supplier Induced Demand was first suggested to explain observations which were not convincingly explained within the orthodox framework. The theory is commonly attributed to Evans (1974) who observed that across the province of British Columbia there was little variation in doctor incomes despite very significant variation in their supply. As doctors could not charge fees above the benefit (rebate) this implied service use in proportion to the doctor supply. This is, of course, consistent with orthodox economics if supply had adjusted to demand or if there had been a permanent excess demand. It is at this point of the argument—both with respect to Evans’ data and the observations in many subsequent studies—that a difference of interpretation arises. Critics of SID have generally argued that as the observations are consistent with theory, then SID is ‘unproven’. Evans and others appeal to judgement. Is it likely that variation in service use of 200 - 400 percent could be attributed to other causal factors? The effects of age, sex, income and medical status are independently known and cannot explain the discrepancy. Anecdotal evidence did not indicate significant queuing. SID was therefore proposed as an alternative explanation.

A more rigorous statistical analysis had, in fact, been published in 1972 by Fuchs and Kramer. In this, and in subsequent, similar, studies doctor supply is endogenised and explained, in large part, by doctors’ propensity to work in congenial residential areas. Inserted in the demand equation the endogenised doctor supply has had significant explanatory power.

This latter approach has been criticised statistically as discussed briefly below and various other sources of evidence have been used to support SID. For example a number of studies report an otherwise inexplicable increase in services per person following the freezing of the fee schedule. Perhaps the most notable evidence is the result of a random control trial which ‘converted’ Charles Phelps, one of the most trenchant critics of SID (see Phelps 1997 p254). In this, doctors at a university hospital clinic were randomised to receive income by salary or a fee for service. Patients attending the clinic were randomly assigned to doctors. The result was that fee-forservice doctors scheduled almost 30 percent more return visits than those on salary. Most of the discrepancy was attributable to a 50 percent greater scheduling of (medically doubtful) well care visits (Phelps 1997).

Direct financial reward is not the only incentive for medical professionals to engage in SID.

It has already been mentioned that physicians in the US often perform tests they know are pointless to protect themselves from being sued (though this may also be used as a rationalisation to justify extracting more money from the patient:)). This would be SID to avoid a possible loss of money and public image. SID may also occur for internal rather than external payoffs. E.g., associating more care with better care.
 
So the idea was that by making people pay a fee from their own money to see a physician, it would reduce the number of 'frivolous' visits and hence claims on their insurance policy, reducing overall costs.

I didn't read the whole 45 pages, but I guess you did...
...so perhaps you'll point out where they said it reduced the number of frivolous visits.
Or is that just your take?
 
I didn't read the whole 45 pages, but I guess you did...
...so perhaps you'll point out where they said it reduced the number of frivolous visits.
Or is that just your take?

It's not just my take, it's the idea behind making people pay some of their own money to access a service; it focuses the mind as to whether or not the service is really wanted and mitigates against moral hazard.

Unfortunately, in the case of medical services, it can also discourage people from seeking necessary care, particularly those on low incomes.

Do you need me to provide evidence for these assertions, or do you trust me?:)
 
Ivor,

Do you need me to provide evidence for these assertions, or do you trust me?
In fact, no, I don't need you to provide this evidence, and, no, I don't trust you, sorry :(
Because I think I'm having the effect I intended, which was to get you to see alternative explanations...

it's the idea behind making people pay some of their own money to access a service; it focuses the mind as to whether or not the service is really wanted and mitigates against moral hazard...Unfortunately, in the case of medical services, it can also discourage people from seeking necessary care, particularly those on low incomes.
Yes, there is more than one reason for the results as I have been trying to point out to you all along. First of all, if it is a fact that having to pay a certain amount of the consult fee reduces the number of visits, that is a patient determined change, not a doctor determined change. And yes, they may not be frivilous visits being avoided but necessary visits being discouraged. And If you read all of those studies with these sorts of alternatives in mind, you will find that the conclusions of the authors are not the only ones supported by the evidence they obtained.

That was my point and I am glad you now see this. :)

regards,
BillyJoe
 
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