Merged Freeman on the Land in America/lawful rebellion/sovereign citizens

[Ysidro]

This is just all old tax protester BS. The "legal person" stuff, the birth certificate arguements, talk of "common law" vs. "admiralty law".

It would be a fine joke if there weren't people in prison for tax evasion who tried to use these arguements in court.

 

[linusrichard]

I have to give credit to My Ill Will - this is actually the most coherently I've seen these ideas expressed before. Obviously, they are all wrong. I think the reason that they're normally not presented as coherently as MIW does here is that it makes it more obvious how wrong they are. Reading these posts, it's easy to say, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. Normally, reading this kind of tax protester nonsense, it's more like Huh?, What?, Nope, What?!

What gets me about this, though, is that it just doesn't pass a laugh test. We have a government that has turned into a bankrupt corporation, and decided to suspend the Constitution and enslave all of its citizens at birth. So far, so good. So, why would such a government then allow you to negate all of your debt and declare your own sovereignty simply by recognizing the value of proper capitalization and the application of the UCC, and some legal magic words? What is the United States, Rumpelstiltskin? A James Bond villain? Yes, the government is allowed to use you as collateral for the national debt without your permission, but they're not allowed to own gold, and they have to let you do whatever you want if you ask in just the right words. What? Come on, Dr. No, he's asleep - why not just shoot him now?



ETA:
P.S. It's already been said in this thread, but it can't be said too many times: do not do not do not behave as if any of these ideas were true. There is a very real possibility of prison.

That's the scary thing about this stuff. If it were just the parts about the UCC and the gold fringe and the straw man and the slavery, people might not try it in court because you would know you wouldn't get away with it. You could think - well, I could fight this, and I'd be right, but I'd lose. But the scary thing is, part of the myth is that you would win! And you wouldn't! I just have to hope that somewhere deep down, MIW doesn't believe that part. Because he might end up in prison if he does...

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Common law doesn't apply across the UK. Scotland has it's own legal system.

Here in the U.S., Louisiana also doesn't use British Common Law. Louisiana uses codified law based, I believe, on the Napoleonic Code.

 

[Madalch]

Here in the U.S., Louisiana also doesn't use British Common Law. Louisiana uses codified law based, I believe, on the Napoleonic Code.

And in Canada, so does Quebec.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Awww, this old crud again....

This crap is pre-forum. As the attorney (who's apparently a rigid constitutionalist and thus mighty damned conservative) in the below link states, he's not selling good advice, he's selling grand jury indictments.

He, in the above sentence, refers of course to Roger Elvick, the darling of the anti-taxers. Not surprisingly - he wrote the theory up WHILE IN JAIL.

My Ill Will, before you wind up in jail yourself for following this insanity, maybe you want to take a breath of fresh air. This is the most batcrap crazy idea since the beginning of batcrap crazy ideas. It even surpasses the crazy lady who had photographic proof that pteradactyls did the 911 attacks on the WTC towers.

http://www.devvy.com/patriot2_20021117.html

 

[Beerina]

I haven't seen the link as I'm at work and can't watch video, but this seems like an amusing mix of anarchism and tax protester junk.

Yeah, a lot more like a bunch of janitors with guns than real John Galts who shoulder the advancement of the world.

 

[LightinDarkness]

I am sorry I got to this woo late, but my reading this thread was amusing. I have a lawyer friend and he says that every so often the woos in court try to bring this up. They get charged with something and then declare to the judge they are sovereign, and the judge laughs at them and precedes as usual.

By the way, no one can declare themselves sovereign because AS LONG AS YOU LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY YOU ARE BENEFITING FROM ME OR SOMEONE ELSE. I'm perfectly happy to zone off a 500 square mile part of either coast and remove it from all US military protection and ALL public services - anyone is free to go into the "freedom zone", anyone going out will be considered an illegal immigrant.

I imagine a grand total of 0 of these freedom movement woos would take up my offer.

 

[sackett]

Been there, done that, broke a axle gitten out

...I'm perfectly happy to zone off a 500 square mile part...and remove it from,,,ALL public services....

Well hell's afire, you are just a talking about that country east of the Gas Hills out in Wyoming. Ain't even no private services since old Jick Snyder sold up & moved to Casper to live with his grand kids. (Old basterd still owes me a month's wages after the time I rode fence for him and got lost a looking for his salt box.) I would dearly like to see some of them libertarinists try it on in that Gas Hills country, reckon they'd learn to lean on a neighbor's help oncet their well went bad. Say, if you see old Jick you might tell him how good even five dullers on account would feel.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'm giving this thread a rare 5 Hovinds out of 5.

And for the record, I'm declaring myself a Free-man-of-Space.

 

[Euromutt]

This is just all old tax protester BS. The "legal person" stuff, the birth certificate arguements, talk of "common law" vs. "admiralty law".

Yeah, most of what my ill will's writing rings familiar to me from reading David Neiwert's In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest, except it's even more elaborate and tortuous.

 

[KingMerv00]

Capitalization actually has a very distinguishable effect and this is proven in many court cases.

This is not true and your transcript does not prove the contrary. An argument like that would be shot down by the judge because it would undermine the execution of the spirit of the law. Yes, judges can make rulings for public policy reasons. I also suspect this has already been addressed in common law.

 

[Toke]

So you are looking for the magic words that can set you free?

Try the Necronomicon, it comes in a paperback version.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Ive been doing allot of research myself in the past 5 months after meeting a guy who was talking to me about becoming soverign...He has actually set the whole thing up in another commenwealth country and many of my friends have become soverign and are no longer paying unlawful tax anymore. It made all my hair stand on end... (one knows truth when one hears it)

Evidently not.

Noticed that the rable of intelligent minds on this site had nothing of any measure to add ...

Apart from facts, but hey, facts, what relevance do they have?

Its Genius that the game created by those that created it have left a get out clause ...

Why do you think your Evil Slave-Masters supplied you with a get-out clause? Why wouldn't they just prosecute your sorry tax-dodging ass for not paying your taxes like the rest of us ...

... oh, wait, they would.

 

[Toke]

Why do you think your Evil Slave-Masters supplied you with a get-out clause? Why wouldn't they just prosecute your sorry tax-dodging ass for not paying your taxes like the rest of us ...

... oh, wait, they would.

It would not be a propper fairy tale if they did. Hence the search for the magic words.

 

[Skeptic]

Lawful Rebellion

It's hard to take seriously people whose very name is a contradiction in terms, and who do not seem to realize it.

...admiralty law...

These silly kooks think that, for some strange reason, all USA courts, because they have a US flag with gold fringes on them, are "really" admirality (or military) courts, and if the kook will just inform the judge of this point and insist on a "constitutional" court instead, the judge will have no choice but to dismiss the case against him.

One witty judge recently listened to a crank's long story about how he is not a real judge and the court is not a real court, but rather a fake "admirality" court, and replied: "well, I'll pretend you're a boat."

 

[Skeptic]

e has actually set the whole thing up in another commenwealth country and many of my friends have become soverign and are no longer paying unlawful tax anymore.

You can't get blood from a stone. Most of these "free sovereign citizens" are broke losers, working under the table, who aren't worth the trouble to prosecute for non-filing of taxes.

But once the IRS sees there's something to get from the idiot, or wants to make example of the dummy, the dummy usually ends up in jail.

Where, indeed, he will not pay any income tax, having no income any more.

 

[tomwaits]

You can't get blood from a stone. Most of these "free sovereign citizens" are broke losers, working under the table, who aren't worth the trouble to prosecute for non-filing of taxes.

But once the IRS sees there's something to get from the idiot, or wants to make example of the dummy, the dummy usually ends up in jail.

Where, indeed, he will not pay any income tax, having no income any more.

Actually, from what I've read, it's less likely than you think that a tax protester will go to jail. It is difficult to prove that the person knew that he had to pay taxes but still didn't.

However, you can bet that the IRS will still get their money, regardless if the person goes to jail. By hook or by crook, you are going to pay those back taxes.

 

[Skeptic]

Jesus came back as a lawyer for crazy people?

Close enough. He came back as a defendant sued by crazy people.

Still, as David Merrill, one of the plaintiffs in this case (the other is his motor scooter) had noted, he isn't insane, or anything: he isn't suing that Jesus Christ, so clearly, all suspicions about his mental health are unfounded.

 

[Architect]

I think that the point is that we are waiting for concrete evidence from the "freeman" posters. But frankly, at the moment we just don't have a coherent argument.

 

[Architect]

What's your point, caller? That the Freeman movement is founded on fairytales? I might buy that.