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Stossel Solves the Health Crisis with Capitalism

We do often hear US poster declaring that if we agree that universal healthcare is a right in the US,

The thing is that everyone has a right to health care in the US, it is just that it is limited to emergency life saving care. This leads to many ineffeciencies in the health care system.
 
On the "money" issue -- it occurs to me that another ideological axiom (again, peculiarly American) underpinning positions such as Dan's (and those of many AnCap or large-L Libertarians) is that all those who are rich deserve to be rich, and all those who are poor deserve to be poor, without exception. It's a very pervasive pre-supposition.

Fred Goodwin says you're wrong.

Hey many americans want universal health care, and don't think that way.
 
Does anyone have a link to some recent accurate statistics on this? Because it seem to be a given (from my perception of presidential campaigns) that it will be a vote loser for a poitician to propose it.

Well, in the Presidential debates, Obama clearly stated numerous times that he considered healthcare a right. And he got elected.
"America" is changing "it's" mind. Probably because of the internet.

Pre-internet, I had no idea that we were the only developed nation on earth with this wacky system. Or that the countries with UHC had systems that generally worked fine.

Pretty much everything most Americans (even liberals!) thought about UHC 10 years ago was a series of damning myths. "Those countries are all on the verge of economic collapse because of UHC." "You have to pay 50% of your income to taxes to make UHC work" etc.

Now that more and more of us are learning that none of that stuff is true, more of us are coming around to evaluating our options, and thinking of UHC as a plausible solution to some of our healthcare problems.
 
Indeed, my niece was lucky that one of the local hospitals specalises in children's cardiac problems (the same hospital the figured in Rolfe's favourite example - Abigail) - so the family didn't have to travel very far. Very lucky as she had to be in hospital for months.


Newcastle, wasn't it? I just checked the distance from Abigail's home town; it's slightly over 150 miles. But that's by road and I understand that Abigail was flown there by air ambulance. Twice.

Dammit, 150+ miles and not even in the same country. (Abigail is Scottish and Newcastle is in England - the two countries have separate NHS establisments, but with complete reciprocity.)

I post that example not as a declaration that Abigail couldn't have received that level of care in the US - of course she could. I post it when I'm faced with the assertion that universal healthcare is somehow a second-rate or substandard provision. I have repeatedly asked US posters who boast about "the best care in the world" to tell me what higher level of care Abigail could possibly have received if she'd been an American girl. No reply. I also asked US posters to tell me, if Abigail had been American, would she have been guaranteed that standard of care, even if her father had been an unemployed biulder's labourer? No answer.

I saw the original article in the dead-tree paper while we were having this discussion with Jerome, and bookmarked it. Your experience, and Mark's, demonstrate that this scenario is by no means uncommon. All Jerome was doing at the time was repeatedly posting "Face it, your system sucks." His only comment on the Abigail story, however, was to remark that he didn't think Abigail's mother had access to cosmetic dentistry. (Her teeth looked OK in the bigger picture in the printed paper.)

I'd still like to hear US posters' opinion on the quality of NHS paediatric cardiology on the basis of that story (and yours and Mark's).

Where's the tumbleweed smilie when you need it?

Rolfe.
 
Yes, the Freeman Hospital in Newcastle. I sing their praises whenever I get the opportunity.


An excellent hospital, little over a mile away from me. In the local area it is seen as something to be proud of because of the expertise in there.


Strangely enough there was a news item on the local ITV news tonight about an aging gent whole suffered a heart attack in the Tyne tunnel, from the time of the call to the end of his life saving operation at the Freeman the total time elapsed was 1 hour and 15 minute, can't get much better than that to be honest. (The Tyne Tunnel is as its name suggests a tunnel which goes under the River Tyne and is pretty much always jammed full of traffic)


On the whole the NHS in Newcastle is fantastic, 3 year ago I went to my GP for a back complaint and was operated upon within 3 days by the surgeon of my choice (from a professor to new consultants, I just went with the man I had been referred to by my GP) at Newcastle General within the neuroscience wing. This again is an excellent top health facility considering the size of the population in the North East compared to further down south. We certainly haven't suffered because of the lack of free market, in fact the opposite could be true. The expertise and responsiveness is excellent.
 
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Pretty much everything most Americans (even liberals!) thought about UHC 10 years ago was a series of damning myths. "Those countries are all on the verge of economic collapse because of UHC." "You have to pay 50% of your income to taxes to make UHC work" etc.


And how this misconception came about and why these myths were sold to people is an extremely interesting question, to which I do not entirely know the answer. However.

If we sidestep the "innate rights" argument, and agree that the right to healthcare is something which can be granted by a government to its citizens at will (and with whatever limitations it deems expedient/necessary), then things become simpler. First, we establish that it is within the capability of the society to provide for that right, if it is granted. This is self-evidently the case as regards the USA. Other similar societies manage to provide for that right at a cost of around 8% of GDP. The USA currently spends about 15% of GDP on healthcare. Therefore the wealth of the country can undoubtedly support the provision.

The only question then becomes, does the US society, as a whole, want to do this?

Let's look at the advantages.

  • Every citizen has access to healthcare irrespective of wealth
  • Nobody is contributing to the provision of a service they are not permitted to access
  • "Freeloading" is only possible by tax evasion
  • Nobody is forced to accept or remain in a job they dislike in order to secure healthcare
  • Nobody who is involuntarily forced from their job will lose healthcare access
  • Heathcare access cannot be arbitrarily terminated by an employer looking to save money
  • Treatment provided is not restricted by insurance loss adjusters
  • Choice of provider is not restricted by insurance company contracts
  • Previous need for healthcare provision does not affect future entitlement
  • No lifetime ceiling on entitlement to care
  • The most expert consultants can have the most serious and complicated cases referred to them without losing income, even if these patients are relatively impecunious
  • Entitlement to care means that anyone failed by the system (not provided with adequate care) has legal redress
  • Citizens freed from a potentially intolerable burden of charity if a personal acquaintance lacks entitlement to care for a serious condition
  • Paying for insurance, while remaining an option, is no longer compulsory
  • Inclusion of political decision-makers within a universal system forces these people to support the system and prevents publicly-funded care becoming "second-rate"
  • Elimination of stress and worry about paying for treatment
  • Good value for money (8% of GDP for full coverage as opposed to 15% of GDP for incomplete coverage), partly through efficiency savings and partly through economies of scale/bulk purchasing potential
  • More disposable income for everyone (and the absence of any need to lock money away in health savings accounts) stimulates the economy
There may well be more, but I'll move on for now.

Real disadvantages are few.

  • System may be underfunded if politicians court popularity by cutting taxes - but in that case, nobody is any worse off than in the present US situation, as insurance may still be purchased. Also, note that point 15 above militates against that eventuality to some extent.
  • Large-scale system vulnerable to self-perpetuating internal bureaucracy and large-scale bad decisions (likely to be a smaller effect than the positive effect noted at 17 above, however)
Now let's look at the advantages of the present US system.

  • Citizens are not compelled to pay for anyone else's healthcare - no wait, they are, in their taxes (Medicare and Medicaid) and in the overcharging inflicted on them by hospitals to cover the care they are forced to give to uninsured emergency cases
  • Citizens are not compelled to pay for the care of the improvident or those whose health problems are the result of poor lifestyle choices - no wait, they are, see above, and also consider that many people who make unhealthy lifestyle choices are covered by insurance, which others pay into
  • Affluent citizens can access top-quality care immediately without waiting in line behind the hoi polloi - sure, but they can do that anywhere, nobody is stopping them from taking out insurance for enhanced service even where there is a universal system in operation
  • Affluent citizens who choose to rely on their own insurance cover or on self-pay are able to opt out of paying any tax to support the publicly-funded sector - no wait, they're not
Any demands to change that situation (points 1, 2 and 4) inevitably, logically and inescapably lead to the possibility, indeed likelihood, indeed certainty, that people of limited means will die because they have no way to access the healthcare they need. You simply cannot assert that nobody should be compelled to contribute to the cost of a service that is needed, as a matter of life and death, by someone who has no hope of being able to pay for it for themselves, without accepting that the probable consequence of this assertion is that this person will be left to die. And no fantasy of charity fairies funded by a few philanthropists willing to contribute way above their proportionate share will change that. And a move to a universal-access system will not make the compulsion element one iota worse than it is under the present system.

Now of course the citizens of the USA are entirely at liberty to reject the introduction of a universal healthcare system for whatever reason they choose. But I'm struggling for reasons here, beyond the assertion that this is communism so we can't have it (even though somehow we're prepared to put up with communism to provide everything from education to firefighting to foreign embassies to library books).

Anybody got any other perspectives on this?

Rolfe.
 
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Beautiful summary.


The difference between 8% and 15% of GDP would affect the insurance companies turnover badly.
They have a strong political voice, both through direct payment to politicians, and through assorted organisations/thinktanks. That will give some problems in getting the message through.
 
Once again Dan, you cannot just insist upon X Y and Z. You need to learn about what you are arguing against so passionately or you just look like an idiot.


That's definitely true.

In fact, having seen you in another area of these forums, I can provide an analogy. You are acting like a truther. Any evidence (and the posters that provide it) that conflicts with YOUR opinions and YOUR views can be ignored. You stick your fingers in your ears and scream "lalala I'm not listening". Well tough. It doesn't work with 9/11 and it won't work here, all it does is make you look intellectually dishonest and about 5 years old.

No, I agree that you guys provide a compelling argument for soc-HC, but some of you are jerks (no names). I've been questioning the statistics that you all provided, and in doing so have been called names and had people making all kinds of assumptions about me. Sure, I jump in and make stupid comments, but its the Mother-Lovin internet for cryin out loud!

I actually find myself playing the pro-soc UHC role in discussing this with others now, just to see if anyone can rebutt some of the points made in here. I started of this thread with a positive mindset, and if you go back and read you can see it deteriorated very fast into calling me an idiot, so eff-it!

ETA: GStan on the other hand is listening to opposing arguments and considering them fairly. It's possible to have a discourse with him because he isn't acting like a coward.

Well, lets hope he doesn't ask too many questions or you guys will start in with the smart-donkey remarks and the name calling.
 
Dan, I think it would be helpful to try to get that chip off your shoulder. I know you've said you never had any intention of implying that poor people, or feckless people, or people who had contributed to their own health problems, should be left to die.

However, when you post (repeatedly) that you oppose any system that compels you to contribute to someone else's healthcare, people who can follow a train of logic tend to notice that that is the highly probable (indeed virtually certain) consequence of your position.

As far as I can see, most if not all of the "name-calling" and assumptions was a result of that connection being made.

You've admitted you occasionally make "stupid comments", and of course there's no law against that, but then again, such comments are likely to be treated as they deserve. It's a rough old internet out there, and actually, this place (thanks to the MA) is a lot less rough than some.

So could you grow a slightly thicker skin and give me your thoughts on that post of mine above (529)? I'm pretty sure there are wrinkles I haven't thought of.

Rolfe.
 
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The difference between 8% and 15% of GDP would affect the insurance companies turnover badly.
They have a strong political voice, both through direct payment to politicians, and through assorted organisations/thinktanks. That will give some problems in getting the message through.


Well, yes, there are those with a big vested interest incentive in opposing universal healthcare. Most of them are rich and can buy political influence.

Why the US posters think this is a good situation to be in I'm not sure.

Rolfe.

ETA: Past my bed-time. Godnight all.
 
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But I'm struggling for reasons here, beyond the assertion that this is communism so we can't have it (even though somehow we're prepared to put up with communism to provide everything from education to firefighting to foreign embassies to library books).

Anybody got any other perspectives on this?

Rolfe.

No, that's pretty much it. The first layer of opposition is a series of myths, and beneath that are political beliefs so strong they are akin to religious convictions. It's really only the most extreme of the far right that have this issue, too. Most Americans aren't that fanatical. On the "American mostly" forums I go to, whenever this topic comes up, most people end up deciding that UHC actually sounds pretty nice (after the predictable myth-squashing that must initially go on for the first 5 or 10 pages).
But...there are some who really just believe with their whole heart that government intervention is always ineffective or disasterous, and that most of our country's problems revolve around lazy people looking for "government hand outs". And you can't really reason with that sort of deeply held belief.
 
But...there are some who really just believe with their whole heart that government intervention is always ineffective or disasterous

Are there any way to measure if the US goverment is really that incompetent compared to others?
 
Are there any way to measure if the US goverment is really that incompetent compared to others?

The belief is that the free market is The Best. The free market will always provide The Best for anyone who is not just lazy.
 
The belief is that the free market is The Best. The free market will always provide The Best for anyone who is not just lazy.

Yes I know that one, and it leads to/requires the incompetent goverment belief.

I am just wondering if there are any objective measure of goverment/public administration competence.
 
But...there are some who really just believe with their whole heart that government intervention is always ineffective or disasterous, and that most of our country's problems revolve around lazy people looking for "government hand outs". And you can't really reason with that sort of deeply held belief.


That seems to be where Dan has been coming from, although I'd question the "believe with his whole heart" in that case. He sounds to me more like someone who has always been around people who firmly believe that, and has picked up the attitude as a given. You can reason with Dan, but he has a tendency to go away, then return with his original prejudices magically restored.

One of the AMSA papers linked to earlier dealt with the "lazy people" myth.

In contrast to prevailing stereotypes, 80% of the uninsured are hardworking Americans who are employed or come from working families. However, they are unable to obtain insurance through their work either because their employer does not offer it, their employer does offer it but the employer [employee?] share of the premium is too expensive, or they are not eligible for health insurance (e.g. they are part-time or have not worked long enough at the job).


The reference for this is given as "Kaiser Family Foundation. "The Uninsured: A Primer", 2005."

I imagine a proportion of the remaining 20% consists of people who are unemployed through no fault of their own, perhaps because of chronic illness or disability, or caring commitments, or simply being unable to find work in the recession. It seems very harsh to continually castigate the entire group as lazy work-shy scroungers. In particular, one has to be very aware that efforts to restrict access to benefits for the lazy freeloading contingent frequently impact hardest on the innocent majority, who may be less savvy about playing the system, and less aware of their "rights".

But not only that. Dan often seems to confuse access to healthcare with social security benefits (food aid, housing benefit and so on). While one may very reasonably be outraged that people who are "playing the system" get access to food stamps (stamps - what a quaint and old-fashioned concept!) or housing benefit, and demand that they pay their own way, healthcare access is a different matter. Suppose someone has been improvident and feckless in the past. Suppose they indulged in unhealthy lifestyle choices. The fact is that right now they have diabetes or heart disease or liver failure or cancer or maybe all four. What do you want to do? Tell them it's all their own fault and they've got what was coming to them, and leave them to die? Really? :nope:

I've posted a long list of benefits of universal healthcare. These are benefits to the whole of society. The nay-sayers would have the burden of health-care worries taken off their shoulders just as much as the scroungers. Look at the probable effect on neonatal mortality! The figures posted indicate one extra infant death per 700 live births in the USA compared to Britain. There are over 4 million live births in the USA per year. If the significant factor in this difference is the availability of universal healthcare (and this seems very likely), then this implies that the lives of about 6,000 babies every year might be saved.

To reject all these benefits, for yourself as much as for other people, just because of a desire to see the "lazy" who fall ill "get what they deserve" (i.e. die without treatment) --- it's batcrap crazy.

Rolfe.
 
I have a headache. My worldview has been sufficiently disrupted over the past few months by this and other threads on the subject of healthcare to the point where my idle thoughts seem to dwell on nothing else. (It doesn't help that I also work in healthcare :)). I have alot more I wish to discuss, but a family issue is going to keep me away from the forums/away from internet access for a few days.

Just wanted to post this so I don't get pegged as someone who flees from difficult threads. Don't solve everything without me. I'll be back next week.
 
Dan's repeated references to "soc" healthcare are quite telling. It seems incredible to me that anyone could be quite so naive as to reject anything involving pooling resources for the greater good, on principle, simply because of attitudes formed in the Cold War, but it does seem as if that's what's happening.
Doesn't this make the US military a little bit socialist? Has this been said already?
 

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