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Stossel Solves the Health Crisis with Capitalism

Feel free to ignore me because I'm speculating, but could it be that by the time people become eligible for medicare (at 65?) then an ailment that would have cost $x to treat when it became apparent now costs 20 X $x because it's been festering for five years?

It is also that elderly people tend to have chronic illnesses which if managed correctly they can survive for many years, Parkinson's, diabetes, dementia, strokes etc. The rub is that these are expensive to treat because of their longterm nature and unlike, say, some cancers or a heart attack need ongoing medical attention. In any system that is expensive and beyond the means of most people to either save for or insure against.

Likwise a cold in younger person can easily become pneumonia in a more elderly one.

Steve
 
That was a fun post, but this part is ideology, also.

Plumbing, by virtue of the Plumber's Oath (little known thing whereby they pledge to only fix leaking pipes) is not a capitalistic system either.

I think there's a good case to be made for a National Plumbing Service. Cosmetic plumbing, such as new kitchens or bathrooms would not be covered, but leaks, faulty radiators, etc. would be.

All plumbers would have to go to plumbing school, pass a standardised exam and have several years post graduate training before being allowed to touch your plumbing without supervision.
 
it seems that we have to get to the reason why Medicare is so expensive compared to other systems in the world. [ . . . ] But if it's an "unknown" factor then we need to have some sort of commission to get to the bottom of it.
Not sure why Rome's burning . . . let's have a poke around and find out . . . if we just put the fire out it might start again.

;)

I think Policenaut does have a point. Why is Medicare and the other current communist socialist fascist non-universal but here's a band-aid of something not quite totally unlike universal health care so expensive?
 
Many live 15+ to an apartment/house and get paid under the table doing any number of jobs. As for them starving to death on the streets I don't think so. You think that'd be a big story if waves of illegals were lying dead in the streets of US cities.
 
I think there's a good case to be made for a National Plumbing Service. Cosmetic plumbing, such as new kitchens or bathrooms would not be covered, but leaks, faulty radiators, etc. would be.

All plumbers would have to go to plumbing school, pass a standardised exam and have several years post graduate training before being allowed to touch your plumbing without supervision.
And free-at-delivery tax funded universal plumbing care? Pay yourself for a toilet makeover.

There is actually a licensing system for plumbers, but I don't know if it has any statutory force. Businesses tend to like these things since they serve as barriers to entry and help protect high prices. Plumbers have asymmetric info, see? ("Yer tank's knackered--whole thing'll have to be re-done luv")

(Don't go anywhere near rule 2.)
 
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He needs to accept the consequences of his position.


Well, one would hope so. He's not showing much sign of doing that though. I was more hopeful of the softer approach than full-on confrontation, but maybe nothing will do it.

Just saying "there has to be another answer, I'm sure we can work something out" isn't going to cut it. But there's nothing any of us can do if he refuses to think beyond that.

So he need to look at what the "Stossel Solution" is.


Actually, there isn't a "Stossel Solution" [TM]. Stossel didn't even pretend he had an answer. It was Dan who claimed that Stossel had an answer. (Though I note that Dan referred to him in the other thread as "my boy Johnny" and things like that, so it would seem he's something of a devotee of this charlatan.)

Stossel maintained that an insurance policy with a high excess, where the excess was also made available to the client and the client had control of how that was allocated, was advantageous in reducing frivolous claims. He may well be right. However, the frivolous claims thing seems to be a unique feature of the American insurance-based system anyway. I don't know why the insurance companies don't disallow the frivolous claims in the first place. (Actually I suspect they do, and that Stossel is essentially making that bit up.)

So, he's presented a solution to the (possibly entirely fictitious) problem of frivolous medical insurance claims.

At the price of costing businesses quite a lot of money, sequestering part of their salary away from employees into a dedicated healthcare fund, and providing a disincentive to people to have something that might be minor or might be very serious checked out at an early stage.

Way to go, Stossel.

His other genius brainwave was to save on insurance overheads by operating entirely cash-payment first-opinion primary care practices. This doubtless reduces the cost of such care quite a bit. Good system if you have a condition costing less than about $200 to fix, and you actually have $200.

This is actually how veterinary practice operated in the 1979s and 1980s, and still does in areas where people don't go much for pet health insurance (usually the poorer areas). It's OK, if you have some money and your needs aren't great.

It's absolutely useless if you have something that needs referral to a specialist and a battery of lab tests and fancy imaging investigations, and maybe major surgery. Also pretty useless if you don't have any money in the first place (the consultation fee is about $40, so it wouldn't take much treatment to get your bill up to the $100 region).

There's nothing there that could possibly be extrapolated to reduce costs of big-ticket items to the level where people on the minimum wage could afford these.

Stossel was making a TV programme. Entertainment, spiced with a bit of promotion of his own ideological agenda. He was able to link items that were only very loosely connected in such a way that the uncritical viewer might pick up the impression that something profound was being said. But it doesn't take much critical thought to realise that the dots don't join up. He's either not very bright, or very dishonest. Probably a bit of both.

But he was making a TV show, not trying to solve one of America's most pressing social and political problems.

Maybe, but it seems like nothing will get him to face the real effects of his postions.


Well, it is the JREF. We can but try.

Rolfe.
 
I think Policenaut does have a point. Why is Medicare and the other current communist socialist fascist non-universal but here's a band-aid of something not quite totally unlike universal health care so expensive?

It is because americians are signularly incompetent at managing systems.

(well really a lot of it is that some medicare money goes to private companies were they take a big cut of it thus raising the cost of the system, but hey it makes jobs so it is good, because make work white collar jobs are good while make work blue collar jobs are bad)
 
All plumbers would have to go to plumbing school, pass a standardised exam and have several years post graduate training before being allowed to touch your plumbing without supervision.

We do have a system like that for all trades.
Guess it descends from medieval guilds.
Electrician is 3,5 - 4 years of mixed apprentichip and trade school ending with an exam.
Germany have a similiar system.
 
Well, one would hope so. He's not showing much sign of doing that though. I was more hopeful of the softer approach than full-on confrontation, but maybe nothing will do it.

Just saying "there has to be another answer, I'm sure we can work something out" isn't going to cut it. But there's nothing any of us can do if he refuses to think beyond that.

Why should people take a single approach? I don't think I would be very good at the softer approach, I am not good an nuannce. But I do think that it is good for those who can manage it.

But I don't think anything will get through to him. I tried by asking what he thought should be done in a specific case were someone had no insurance, and he would not answer.

So I will not hold back, he needs to see and admit the consequences of what he is saying.
 
Sorry, but the Hippocratic oath is not some sort of ideological stand; it is a fact of the matter and is an issue of ethics considering the tremendous responsibility we invest in doctors. Further, I think it's more than a stretch to equivocate the Hipp Oath with a Plumbers Oath of which I have never heard and I would guess most people are unaware of and has no bearing on this matter anyhow. The "Plumbers Oath" is a negativist stand: I WON'T fix pipes unless they are leaky (since you can't fix something that isn't broken). The Hipp Oath is positivist: I WILL do all that I can to help a person who is in my care.

The argument that those who are against a national health plan have is that it is a "Socialist" undertaking. No arguments against the plan itself, no refuting that American's pay the most and get the least for their healthcare dollar than anywhere else in the industrialized world, no denying that ER care is the most expensive type of care available yet millions use it for regular care because they don't have health insurance. Just the constant shreiking of, "That's socialism! It's a slippery slope!" Denial of the facts is a hallmark of this type of "argument."

The utter failure of these arch-capitalists to admit that a capitalistic healthcare system DOES NOT WORK shows how blind they are to the problem. They are so entrenched in their belief that they can't see the forest for the trees. Socialized medicine, when done the right way, works, is cheaper and delivers better care.
 
Any system that involves means testing and other inclusion criteria will become very expensive in comparison to a universal benefit. I'm told that is the reason child benefit is not means tested; it's cheaper to give it to everyone with kids than it is to administer the system to decide who is eligible, and then only give it to the eligible people.
 
Guess it descends from medieval guilds.
Medieval guilds arose largely because professional people wanted to protect their income by making it hard for others to compete with them, by the way. Not to protect the consumer. If you look at any of the very old articles of association for things like porters, watermen, drapers, goldsmiths etc etc, they are rather clear about this. They were not set up to "protect the public"--that's more recent spin :D
 
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Sorry, but the Hippocratic oath is not some sort of ideological stand; it is a fact of the matter and is an issue of ethics considering the tremendous responsibility we invest in doctors. Further, I think it's more than a stretch to equivocate the Hipp Oath with a Plumbers Oath of which I have never heard and I would guess most people are unaware of and has no bearing on this matter anyhow. The "Plumbers Oath" is a negativist stand: I WON'T fix pipes unless they are leaky (since you can't fix something that isn't broken). The Hipp Oath is positivist: I WILL do all that I can to help a person who is in my care.

I *think* Francesca was being sarcastic about the shonky plumbers who will tell you things are broken so that you will pay them to *fix* them.
 
Sorry [ . . . ]
I made up the plumber's oath ;)

However. Doctors want to earn money too, and good luck to them. And the healthcare system in my country is very capitalistic indeed. Universal insurance doesn't interfere with that. I would have thought that the lengthy threads on this subject would have made that pretty clear by now.
 
We do have a system like that for all trades.
Guess it descends from medieval guilds.
Electrician is 3,5 - 4 years of mixed apprentichip and trade school ending with an exam.
Germany have a similiar system.

The requirements to be a tradesman in the UK are 1) a rusty van and 2) no spare parts in it.

The best strategies for increasing one's chances of getting someone who has a clue what they're doing and pride in their work are to (a) go by word of mouth and/or (b) reject anyone under the age of 50.
 
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<snip>

And the healthcare system in my country is very capitalistic indeed.

<snip>

What about it makes you come to that conclusion?

BTW, doctors don't take the Hippocratic Oath anymore.

The Declaration of Geneva is the nearest modern equivalent, but doctors with a view to career advancement would probably be wise to follow the guidance of their professional regulators, such as the GMC in the UK.
 
Dan has repeatedly returned to the position that he does not want to contribute to the cost of anybody else's healthcare.

Isn't that what insurance does anyway? Take your premium and spread the risk over a large pool of people. The only difference is that we don't have to shop around.

Also why does Cuba have comparable life expectancy and mortality rates to the US for $251 a head?
 
The utter failure of these arch-capitalists to admit that a capitalistic healthcare system DOES NOT WORK shows how blind they are to the problem.

Where do you see a capitalistic health care system? We don't have one in the US. About half our medical bills are paid for by the government, the other half by insurance. There is no incentive to find the best value in health care, as long as someone else is paying for it we demand the "best," most expensive care we can get.

Stossell did present a solution that would work well for most people – health accounts, similar to 401ks, where people could accumulate money for medical bills. That would give then an incentive to find the best value, and allow them to buy cheaper insurance (because of higher deductibles) as more money accumulates.

I went to the pharmacy armed with a prescription for a glucose meter. They ranged from $14 to $80. If I had been buying out of my pocket (or out of a personal health care fund) I would have bought the $40 one. The only difference between it and the $80 model was faster results – 15 seconds for the $40 one, 5 seconds for twice the price. But insurance was paying for it, not me, so I got the most expensive one.

On more than one occasion I've got the more expensive prescription drug, when there was a cheaper OTC version available, because my co-pay for the expensive one was less than the price for the generic drug. If I were paying the full price I'd obviously go for the generic.

The problem I see is the demand for a perfect solution for [/i]everyone[/i]. Ain't gonna happen, anywhere, any time, for anything, ever. So very good solutions, like personal health maintaince accounts, get bad-mouthed because they're not perfect. Instead we get an even more imperfect "solution" that is destined to collapse under its own weight.

Anyone who things UHC is a great idea needs to visit a VA hospital and take a walk around.
 
"Imagine how people would behave if they had food insurance?"

I just don't feel like watching John Stossel long enough to find the context of this, but I will say that people in the US (and many other countries) do have food insurance. It's managed by their governments, for the most part (though in the past decade that task has been deferred to the markets; and it doesn't appear to have been well managed) and most people don't even know about it.

If only health care were so seamless in our lives.



Of course, I'm talking about the strategic grain reserves. Previously, these reserves were managed as part of government farm subsidies and were used to help maintain a steady, cheap and dependable food supply, especially to lower income groups. The 1996 (IIRC) "Freedom to Farm" act changed the nature of subsidies (in a way that favored corporate farms).

In 2008, wheat prices skyrocketed - partly because the strategic reserves had been depleted. This is a side-effect of the capitalist solution to food insurance.
 

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