Yes, and worse.... Actually, most of my time was without audio cockpit alert. The terrain warning was a VERY big earth out the front window!
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AA77 FDR Data, Explained
- Thread starter Anti-sophist
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Yes, and worse.... Actually, most of my time was without audio cockpit alert. The terrain warning was a VERY big earth out the front window!
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Ooh, ooh, pick me! Pick me!
Scott, I take back one part of my post. A benchmark is involved here.
Scott_Milner
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The software doesn't record ground features, buildings, etc. The aircraft acquisition system records the parameters to the flight data recorder. The ground/terrain information is a function of the software.
In other words, the aircraft does not have a digitizing photo lens that records the landscape.
I'm not certain what software the NTSB used. I have not found this to date. It seems like a very basic, scaled down version of what currently is available; and even back in the late 90's.
Nah, you're too smart. Can't fool you and besides I stay away from the fairer sex in contentious discussions.... You know, a lover not a fighter kind of thing....
Scott_Milner
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The field elevation at Dulles on runway #30 is about 287.8 feet according to their website. Sorry I can't post links at the moment, however you may Google this information to verify it.
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Oh, I know the field elevation there, but apparently you don't in that you wonder why the animation indicated 300' on take off.
Scott_Milner
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Excuse me? Is the pressure altimeter mounted on the wheel, or in the aircraft itself? This coming from someone who thought the animation was manually manipulated?
How high off the ground would you estimate this sensor to be?
What is your theory as to how the CSV file reads 40 feet whereas the animation shows 300 feet?
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
The animation is directly from flight parameters in the FDR! Save adjusted numbers to reflect what the Pilots would see on their instruments.
The ground images on the animation are manually placed. Proof! Show me the data used to show where Flight 77 was on take off? Can’t. The runway was place under the animation, or overlaid, or what ever you want to call it because the only data on the FDR at takeoff had 77 2000 to 3000 feet south of the runway.
But still the animation is produce by software and used mainly to see what the plane is doing not where the plane is. Unless you can show me how you can place Flight 77 with the FDR; can you?
The fact is the altitude in the animation is adjusted to with the altimeter setting as needed. The FDR stores pressure altitude, not absolute altitude, so if you analyze the FDR and the animation you can see the data is presented as corrected, or not corrected for local altimeter setting. At the end of the animation the altimeter is not adjusted to the local setting, I believe at takeoff it is adjusted for local altimeter.
The NTSB has to adjust the FDR file to show what the pilots see on his instrument in the cockpit. The pilots set the local altimeter setting in the altimeter with something on 911 like 3022, and his altimeter is within feet of the actual land elevation, +-75 feet is a guide, but usually 10 or 20 feet, look at an altimeter and see what kind of resolution you think is appropriate, remembering pilots do not use the altimeter to judge the precise altitude with a variation of 75 feet, you would have a hard landing or crash. We have radio altimeter I can read out 3, 2, 1 touchdown to you if you are landing. So much for altimeters.
So, yepers, 40 feet on takeoff in the FDR in the animation is adjusted to show what the altimeter reads with the local setting. Thus you get 300 feet when the local altimeter setting is used. Thus some of the values have to be adjusted, and can be done with software to show what the pilots sees on the INSRUMENT. But still the ground track is off by thousands of feet so the Pentagon at the end is not really there. Plus the Pentagon is rotated the wrong heading relative to the flight path, the real flight track of Flight 77, this is a fact and the other fact is the animation is a WORKING COPY.
The sensor for Pressure altitude is on the plane and it is used with an accuracy of +- 75 feet, so what is your point?
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Are you reading the posts or are you just being obtuse? I explained what I meant by that. No, I do not believe the NTSB hires housewives to manually enter data all day.
I don't think the co-pilot carries a barometer.
I don't have the CSV file in front of me, but I think I know why the animation shows 300'.
Scott_Milner
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Can you please tell me what software analysis software you are dreaming of?
What is it called, and what stone age was it written?
How do you 'manually' place this ground image?
I think I'm wasting my time at this forum. I figured the first hit on Google would reveal some decent research data, but I seem to be mistaken.
The altimeter was reading "War and Peace", not “40 feet”, or “50 cents”.
Some altimeters are mounted on the real-estate in front of the pilot in the cockpit firewall, or that stuff in front of us next to the ADI above the HSI.
Some altimeters are mounted on the real-estate in front of the pilot in the cockpit firewall, or that stuff in front of us next to the ADI above the HSI.
Scott_Milner
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What is your thought then? The Dulles web site shows 287.8. The cockpit must
be about 10-15 feet above ground with the landing gear accounted for.
This totals about 300 feet.
So why does the CSV file show 40 feet if the Baro is set to local pressure upon take off?
I guarentee you, you'll keep posting. That is, until your identity gets revealed and you get banned.
Hmmm....complaining about the JREF, dodging questions, JAQing off, being obtuse. Nope, we haven't seen that type of behavior here.
BCR
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Reheat has more patience than I do. These guys have answered your questions, but the animation is just that, an animation used for reference. It was identified as such by the NTSB as a "working" animation and was never used for official purposes. Look at the one that NORAD commissioned for the same purpose, neither are exact (or meant to be) representations of the flight path.
After several years of seriously investigating the same subject, I decided that the animation is moot. Some want to argue that it is off because of mag dec (which should be around 10 degrees, but the actual difference is 20 degrees), or someone did put in the mag dec but the inverse of the correct value (but that don't explain why it is not off alignment in the beginning), or someone just placed the little Pentagon area image in rotated. It does not matter, since for whatever reason, most reasonable people agree it is not an accurate representation of the planes final heading visually.
As to the differences between the CSV and RO2 files, most of these are explained in the NTSB documents and I would suggest spending a few days with them and doing some homework understanding the terms used. We can go around in circles speculating why this and that, but we simply will not know until the NTSB releases additional information. My suggestion would be asking them the same questions since they are the only ones who can adequately answer them.
After several years of seriously investigating the same subject, I decided that the animation is moot. Some want to argue that it is off because of mag dec (which should be around 10 degrees, but the actual difference is 20 degrees), or someone did put in the mag dec but the inverse of the correct value (but that don't explain why it is not off alignment in the beginning), or someone just placed the little Pentagon area image in rotated. It does not matter, since for whatever reason, most reasonable people agree it is not an accurate representation of the planes final heading visually.
As to the differences between the CSV and RO2 files, most of these are explained in the NTSB documents and I would suggest spending a few days with them and doing some homework understanding the terms used. We can go around in circles speculating why this and that, but we simply will not know until the NTSB releases additional information. My suggestion would be asking them the same questions since they are the only ones who can adequately answer them.
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Gravy
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Not certain = have no idea. Yet you claimed to know how the NTSB animation was created. Why?
In fact, a glance shows that it is extremely crude compared to what's possible with the modern software you put forward, not a "scaled down" version of it. Perhaps it was created using a "basic" mode, but it looks more early-mid 90s than anything.
Please remember that you're on a skeptics' forum. Perhaps Rob Balsamo at Pilots for 9/11 Truth has details on what software was used or other facts about how the animation was created. If not, another FOIA request might be necessary.
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The animation is made automatically with some software the NTSB uses. The position of the aircraft in the FDR is only accurate to 2000 to 3000 or so. So please tell me how you can have an animation with 77 clearly fling down the runway, when the FDR says (not really talking since you hold the world literally while you spew otherwise) the plane is 2000 feet south! Explain this, then Reheat saying the images are placed manually means, the NTSB somehow moved the runway, or moved the flight track over the IMAGE in the animation, but the FDR does not show 77 on the runway at take off however the true track shows 77 at take off lined up with the runway perfectly, hense we know we can align the animation over the runway and we have it. What the NTSB actually does is a mystery; what they use to align the image with the flight track is not really known by me, but the data proves the point I am trying to make, you could help me out if you are an expert in something related to just about anything.
40 feet from the FDR, is really 300 feet (about) on the runway due to the fact FDR stores PA, and pilots use an altimeter setting to correct pressure altitude to reflect the local conditions and have a rational reading on the Altimeter. Wowzer.
On the animation the NTSB would have to adjust the FDR PA if they what the animation to show what the pilot sees on the Altimeter. Easy as pie. With respect to those times of flight where 2992 is not set in the Pilots or co-pilots instrument.
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