• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Molten Steel

Status
Not open for further replies.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/JonesAnswersQuestionsWorldTradeCenter.pdf p80 to 84

it was taken from a 40 pound piece of molten iron recovered from the south tower. can you address the questions now please?

this solidified molten iron was determined not to be structural steel so
what was the source of this iron?
what was the source of the extreme temperatures?
when was it molten?

peace

Before I aborted the 20mb pdf download you so casually linked here (without warning of its size tsk tsk) I noticed that the "document" mentioned that ejections of smoke/dust known as "squibs" are characteristic of CD's.

Oh dear. Are we supposed to take this "document" seriously ?

eta: I redid the download. thewholesoul - if you can read this stuff and take it even half seriously then you are in a sorry sorry state. I wish I could put it another way. That Jones .pdf is utter filth.
 
Last edited:
Before I aborted the 20mb pdf download you so casually linked here (without warning of its size tsk tsk) I noticed that the "document" mentioned that ejections of smoke/dust known as "squibs" are characteristic of CD's.

Oh dear. Are we supposed to take this "document" seriously ?

Any twoofer still capable of yammering about "squibs" after being forced to sit down and actually work their way through this may be safely adjudged either dishonest, a dolt or (most likely scenario) both.;)
 
legitimate questions and i am sure they could be satisfied.

however if satisfied would you accept that in the context of the official hypothesis there is no plausible explanation for the extreme temperatures required to liquify iron?

No, As I have stated, and have others, There are many plausible explanations. None have them have been explored in depth, from what I have seen, but that does not mean (A) that they haven't been, or (B) if they haven't, that it was up to NIST to do so (please see my comments about the type of investigation, and its mandate so as not repeat myself).

by who NIST?

No, you would consider them bias, just as I do Jones. I don't particularly care about the answers, as they in no way effect who carried out the attacks or why. If you wish to have your answers though, to an ALTERNATIVE THEORY, then you must have LEGITIMATE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, with an untampered chain of custody, etc...

it was a logical response. when you can not argue against the science argue against the person. but the chain of custody is a legitimate concern.

Not really. Jones is in every way shape and form a 9/11 truther, CTist, what ever you want to call him. He has invested his reputation (to its detriment) in the silly theories, so he is CLEARLY bias.

TAM:)
 
C7 said:
It's clear you are down with the cover-up
I have no idea what you mean, unless you think I should accept unsupported evidence.
I mean you are OK with the destruction of critical evidence, the hiding of evidence the ignoring of evidence.

C7 said:
A real investigation would look at everything.
I seriously doubt they will ever know what I was waring that day or why I was in NH. Has ANY investigation ever answered ever question? So far the only unanswered are moronic disingenuous.
Well that answer sure was.

C7 said:
A real investigation would follow the guidelines in NFPA.
Again (for the many times) why? It wasn't relevant to what they were tasked.
On the contrary, the procedures were very relevant. There was evidence of explosives and exotic accelerants.

Please show HOW they were tasked to abide by an agency that had no jurisdiction.
You are OK with FEMA ignoring established procedures.

C7 said:
NIST decided what the cause was before starting the investigation and ignored any evidence or testimony that did not fit.
Justify this assertion please.
You know that FEMA and NIST ruled out explosives before they started.
They never tested for explosives or exotic accelerants.

They collected 7,000 video clips and 7,000 photos and are still withholding them from the public.
Opinion, Please justify.
Get serious. They have said so.

C7 said:
Because there was so little physical evidence, NIST was not able to explain how the towers collapsed to the ground. That is what they were supposed to do.
Opinion. Please justify. (you don't actually think the "lurkers" don't notice you keep repeating things hoping to pass them off as fact)
Hello?:boggled: Maybe the bold type will help. :eye-poppi

C7 said:
The government kept the first responders testimony secret and only released it when the NY Times filed a FoIA request.
No they didn't.
Yes they did. Your denial knows no bounds. :D

C7 said:
They ignored all the statements and video clips of first responders and survivors telling of explosions and molten metal.
No. This is just plain wrong. Sorry try again.
This is nuts! You are nuts! :D

C7 said:
They collected 7,000 video clips and 7,000 photos and are still withholding them from the public.
No "they" didn't. The clips and video they collected were not theirs to distribute. Why do you keep trying to push this proven lie? Please stop.
There was no need to remove them from the public in the first place. They could have just made copies.

The final report on WTC 7 is a farce.
WTC 7 fell at free fall for 105 feet, their computer model does not.
They lied about the fire on floor 12.
They lied about columns 59, 62, 65 and 68 being damaged.
They have NOT explained the collapse of WTC 7!
Your un-supported opinion. Why don't you start producing evidence instead of hear say and speculation?
Next post

C7 said:
But all that is OK with you guys
What's OK? Does the fact we need proof to support our believes bother you so much that you need to support yours with lies?
No the fact that you are down with the cover-up. :rolleyes: Thanks for the comic relief. ;)
 
So, when do you start convincing the experts, Chris? I mean what the heck do you think is going to get done debating on an internet forum with all of us folks in denial? You act as if these (as you are so fond of telling any of us) opinions you have are as rock-sold as the nose on your face. SOMEBODY should listen to you who can actually do something, right?
 
I don't think 90% of truthers even bother with activism or culpability anymore. That was 2006. Now the vast majority of them, IMO, argue this stuff merely to argue...for arguing sake. How else can you explain their continued apathy and lack of mobilization with regards to the "clearly evident" inside job theory and evidence.

They figure there is nothing they can do against the NWO and Big Brother. No one is listening and fewer are doing because they are all bought off by corporate america, and the powerful Iluminati.

TAM;)
 
These samples of previously molten material jones has been testing and found to contain iron, could they be made of some (non iron) material that contains iron particles?
 
honest answer. would you accept a thermite reaction as a plausible candidate since molten iron IS a bi-product of a thermite reaction?

No! My reasoning would be, why would it be there. I watched the events unfold on that day and said to myself after seeing UA 175 hit the south tower, "I can't believe that building withstood that". Now, I'm a person with substantial building and structures experience and one that has never (even to this day) ever heard one of my colleagues mention any reason to doubt the way the towers (or WTC 7) collapsed. If you want to convince me (or my type) you need a really good hypothesis as to why it would be needed in the first place. I'm still waiting (but don't expect it).



honest answer. would you accept a thermite reaction as a plausible candidate since it DOES generate extreme temperatures?

No! you would need to show me why I would rule out the fires. Remember I do understand eutectic reactions.


Yes i do have a reason to rule out fires [wtc fires] because they cannot possibly reach temperatures sufficient to liquify iron.

They don't have to! This has been explained time and time again. Look up "eutectic". Again, I know the subject and see nothing wrong. I was not told this by the USG after 9/11, this is knowledge I had long before. (did I mention I do wrought iron work).
A gravity collapse cannot possibly generate sufficient heat to liquify iron
Again. there's no need. You can not show temps necessary to support your claim. Can you? Remember you need to prove time and place.




Pressure or friction during collapse cannot possibly generate sufficient heat to liquify iron.

See above.
honest answer. well if Mackey is right and temperatures in the rubble pile could only reach around 900c then we can rule the rubble pile out as a possible location to liquify iron. moreover there is no credible thermal images of the rubble pile that measured temperatures sufficient to liquify iron. we have already ruled out the wtc fire as a possible location thus we are left with one possible location - DURING THE COLLAPSE.

Or a eutectic reaction after. That's my bet. Much less temp and more likely.
by testing the chemical composition of the samples and comparing the results with molten iron produced from commercial thermite reactions.

When do you plan to do this? So far it hasn't been done, only promises to do so.


furthermore we can simply rule out all other natural causes by the existence of extreme temperatures that were necessary to produce the molten iron.

No we can't because how do you know they weren't there already? Moly grease, fly ash and paving materials all contail thease. Were they not present. "Eliminate the obvious first" Jones forgot this step. Why did you?

i may be biased by your responses dont sound like an explanations to me.

I'm not trying to explain anything. Your the one selling a "theory". Convince me!



the presence of once molten iron IS proof of extreme temperatures DURING the collapse. I suggest you work on accepting this fact.

Your not even close. Sorry.

To you too.
 
Last edited:
DGM:

I believe the problem surrounds the spherules. The indication is for these to form, the iron had to be liquified (in order to take on the spherical shape I am guessing).

I could be wrong.

TAM:)
 
I mean you are OK with the destruction of critical evidence, the hiding of evidence the ignoring of evidence.

This is stupid. The only thing they "ignored" is the un-substantiated speculation that you think is important. Show a good reason to consider it. So far it's been 7.5 years and no reason. Do you plan to start soon?


On the contrary, the procedures were very relevant. There was evidence of explosives and exotic accelerants.

None what so ever. Please show this evidence. Remember "evidence" must pass the scientific or legal scrutiny.
You are OK with FEMA ignoring established procedures
.

They didn't. It doesn't matter how many times you say they did it doesn't make it so.


You know that FEMA and NIST ruled out explosives before they started.
They never tested for explosives or exotic accelerants.

We all watched what happened. Why would we look of these things? (this is a real question that you never seem to answer).
Get serious. They have said so.

No they did not. Why lie?
Hello?:boggled: Maybe the bold type will help.
Again: Repeating something time and time again does not make it so. I've addressed this point before.


Thanks for the comic relief.

Any time, I wonder where the "lurkers" are going to place the faith?
 
DGM:

I believe the problem surrounds the spherules. The indication is for these to form, the iron had to be liquified (in order to take on the spherical shape I am guessing).

I could be wrong.

TAM:)

Unless they were already in that form before 9/11 and if they were still in that form in Jones' previously molten material samples then it would suggest that the temperatures were not hot enough.
 
Well yes and no. For example, many metallurgists carry out failure investigations. In this scenario you go back to basics and you gather as much data about the part and it's history before you even start to do a full examination. Then you use your own eyes to have a general look
The rest of the procedure you outlined was never performed by NIST on the horseshoe I-beam in question. My point is simply that whatever method or instrument that can determine if that piece of steel was exposed to extreme temperatures should be done.
In the case of WTC steel these pieces were sectioned and mounted (sectioning) and then etched to bring out the structure. Optical microscopy (looking at the flat surface through a microscope) will then give you 95% of the information you want
To my knowledge this level of examination was only performed on 4 wtc core columns because they were identified as being situated within the fire and impact zone of wtc 1 + 2. NIST did section many pieces – “coupons” - but i havent read any follow up examinations like the one you discuss above.
I'm flattered.
When every post you come out with contains detailed explanations and highlights my lack of knowledge on the subject you were an obvious candidate.
Saying that an iron-worker or myself might be "in the know" isn't too bad a way of approaching things but one must be careful because both of us can make mistakes and one person's experience does not match anothers' even if they share a field such as iron working.
Understood however it does serve to point out the state of empirical ambguity in relation to the horseshoe I-beam and the question of whether it experienced extreme temperatures or not. That is why I love the empirical method because it can prove who is right and who is wrong.

Blacksmithing is an art. And since knowing him I came up with this notion:A blacksmith, a metallurgist does not make. A metallurgist, a blacksmith does not make. But both are possible!
Philosopher/poet now eh?
I agree with that. However, there has to be a reason for starting any investigation unfortunately thermite/government complicity etc is not going to be a good enough reason.

I outlined 8 reasons in the same post and not one of them included the aforementioned reasons above. If you consider any or all of my reasons invalid please state why and i will be happy to debate you.

Examination of the "meteorite" may indicate that there were no high temperatures involved.

Thats certainly a possibility. But we are going to have to examine it first.

By looking at the photographs of the object

I agree that the non-drooping rebar is not an indcation of extreme temperature but there are many sides to the “meteorites” that look fused, scorched, charred, with carbonized paper etc. In the following CBS report, hyberbole aside, heat was considered as being involved in its formation. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14789146/

I'm more than happy to say,"yep, let's do a analysis on the meteorite, use a third party company etc", but I doubt that we are going to find anything extraordinary.

Glad to hear you’re onboard.

If we did then how would that point to the use of explosives/thermite/mate etc and a demolition give the rest of the material recovered?

Real simple. The presence of extreme temperatures [temperatures sufficient to melt steel] during the collapse cannot be explained in the context of the official collapse hypothesis but can be explained in a context of controlled demolition.

But while i have your attention. I would appreciate your response on the following.
Dr. Jones has recovered chunks, fragments, and microsphericules of previously molten iron. The melting point of iron is 1500c. This iron was determined not to originate from structural steel. When analysed the chemical signature of commercial thermite was found. http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/JonesAnswersQuestionsWorldTradeCenter.pdf

What was the source of this iron?
What was the source of the temperatures that melted it?
When did this melting occur: during wtc fire, during collapse, or in the rubble pile?
In your opinion what process or mechanism could account for this molten iron?

peace
 
DGM:

I believe the problem surrounds the spherules. The indication is for these to form, the iron had to be liquified (in order to take on the spherical shape I am guessing).

I could be wrong.

TAM:)
Yes T.A.M.:
But once formed they continue to exist in many everyday places. To NOT find them in a urban environment would be odd. Jones has made no attempt to eliminate the obvious (or background) sources. His "independent verification" that he claimed over a year ago was supposed to do this. Strangely we have never heard to results from these tests:rolleyes:
 
This is where Jones says he knows it's not structural steel because it has "very little Chromium yet abundant Manganese", yes? But from what I've seen, and NIST said, plenty of steel standards of the time used more Manganese than Chromium, so what is Jones logic here?

so when NIST said the molten flow from south tower was aluminium mixed with organics you believed them right?

can you link to NIST's comments. thanks
 
Yes T.A.M.:
But once formed they continue to exist in many everyday places. To NOT find them in a urban environment would be odd. Jones has made no attempt to eliminate the obvious (or background) sources. His "independent verification" that he claimed over a year ago was supposed to do this. Strangely we have never heard to results from these tests:rolleyes:

If thse microspheres exist they will be in the billions in the ground zero dust. samples can be taken from areas of New York downwind of ground zero to act as a control. Any gross difference will be immediately apparent.
 
Last edited:
TWS said:
Real simple. The presence of extreme temperatures [temperatures sufficient to melt steel] during the collapse cannot be explained in the context of the official collapse hypothesis but can be explained in a context of controlled demolition.

Please link us to a CD that had extreme temps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom