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Stossel Solves the Health Crisis with Capitalism

This is a child with no insurance. But he also does not have a life threatening condition so there is no obligation to treat him.

Very sad. So, something like this wouldn't be as likely to happen in UHC? What if the hospital was at capacity? Would they have performed the surgery first and then redirected him to another facility for follow up care?
 
Very sad. So, something like this wouldn't be as likely to happen in UHC? What if the hospital was at capacity? Would they have performed the surgery first and then redirected him to another facility for follow up care?

You have not answered how you pay in your capitalist system for the plastic surgery to deal with this non life threatening problem.
 
Very sad. So, something like this wouldn't be as likely to happen in UHC? What if the hospital was at capacity? Would they have performed the surgery first and then redirected him to another facility for follow up care?

I think routine cases of elective surgery would be bumped for an urgent case if the surgical lists were full for the day.

But IANAD, I just watch Holby City.
 
Very sad. So, something like this wouldn't be as likely to happen in UHC? What if the hospital was at capacity? Would they have performed the surgery first and then redirected him to another facility for follow up care?

Wouln't be as likely?! It wouldn't happen AT ALL.
 
You have not answered how you pay in your capitalist system for the plastic surgery to deal with this non life threatening problem.

It's because I don't have an answer. I was asking how likely it would be for this to happen under UHC because I know they prioritize by need there, and I'm trying to make sure theres not a double standard.
 
I think routine cases of elective surgery would be bumped for an urgent case if the surgical lists were full for the day.

But IANAD, I just watch Holby City.

I see. I'm not familiar with everything that is encompassed under the elective surgery umbrella, but I know what you mean. Would the person being bumped that day get to come back the next day or would they have to start the wait over again?
 
Very sad. So, something like this wouldn't be as likely to happen in UHC?

...snip...

Very, very unlikely in any of the hinversal health cares systems in the developed world.


What if the hospital was at capacity? Would they have performed the surgery first and then redirected him to another facility for follow up care?

Yes and yes. What would have happened is that the medical staff would have assessed the kid, decided treatment was required, rang around other hospitals in the local area and found one with the capacity and then arranged transport, if he was in a rural area perhaps even by an air ambulance.

In the UK the parent would (more than likely) have rang 999 and the paramedics would have turned up, they'd have made the initial assessment and the ambulance would have been directed to take him to the appropriate hospital in the first place.


Now of course I am sure that you will be able to find examples of people being incorrectly turned away from a hospital in all universal health-care systems but I bet that will have been based on a misdiagnoses or medical incompetence, something no scheme can ever eliminate.
 
It's because I don't have an answer. I was asking how likely it would be for this to happen under UHC because I know they prioritize by need there, and I'm trying to make sure theres not a double standard.

Have you considered that there might not BE an answer? And that universal healthare might be better for that reason?
 
I see. I'm not familiar with everything that is encompassed under the elective surgery umbrella, but I know what you mean. Would the person being bumped that day get to come back the next day or would they have to start the wait over again?

I'm not sure. My auntie got "bumped" from her slot for a breast reduction, but they were able to fit her in pretty soon after that.
 
Now of course I am sure that you will be able to find examples of people being incorrectly turned away from a hospital in all universal health-care systems but I bet that will have been based on a misdiagnoses or medical incompetence, something no scheme can ever eliminate

Sure, I see what you mean. I only wanted to know if the same wound would have been prioritized higher in UHC or if there was a chance the boy may have had to wait either way. Not asking just to go find an article to throw at you, I promise;)
 
Very, very unlikely in any of the hinversal health cares systems in the developed world.

It is probably better to say that this would be incredibly unlikely to happen in any health care system in the developed world other than the capitalistic american system.

They did the right thing from a capitialistic sense. He couldn't afford the surgery and they had no mandate to treat. So to provide the best return for the owners of the hospital they refused him.

Now a transfer might be done in any system, because a different hospital might be better set up for treating this sort of injury, but that is a different issue.
 
I see. I'm not familiar with everything that is encompassed under the elective surgery umbrella, but I know what you mean. Would the person being bumped that day get to come back the next day or would they have to start the wait over again?


Sorry if this seems like everybody piling in on you, but I'll try to explain what would happen. Darat has covered it pretty well. First, I'm sure you understand that in a universal healthcare system the question of payment simply wouldn't arise. It never does. Anyone with an injury like that is ENTITLED to treatment. Nobody would even ask.

If the parent showed up at A&E under their own steam with such a child, they'd get seen and assessed very quickly. On the other hand if someone dialled 999 and an ambulance attended at the site of injury, the ambulance crew themselves might well determine by radio through their control centre where would be the best place to take him.

If in fact it turned out that the boy required immediate reconstructive surgery, and the best maxillo-facial surgeon was scheduled to do another, less urgent operation, then sorry, that person would be bumped.

They would, however, be re-scheduled as soon as possible, depending on the urgency of their own case.

This chain of events was the cause of a number of aggrieved patients in the past. It did happen that someone whose case wasn't an emergency got bumped more than once, when real emergencies showed up. These people weren't happy, and in fact were often very stressed. Often the victims were people needing orthopaedic work such as hip replacements, who were bumped because of road accident victims.

However, if you refer back to what I was saying about entitlement and the empowerment it generates, basically the government got so much flak for this that it was sorted out, more or less. The answer was to set up a number of elective-only units where emergency admissions aren't accepted. The hospitals with the A&E units deal with the car crashes and so on, and the patients on the waiting list who go to the elective-only units know that they can't be bumped.

In my own area, we're very well served. Years ago, a private company built a big surgical unit called Health Care International. The idea was that they would take rich foreigners such as Arab sheikhs who could pay well for top-class treatment. Absolutely nothing to do with the NHS, wouldn't even take local private patients. They even built a hotel next door so that the patients' relations could come and stay to keep their loved ones company.

It failed. The sheikhs were busy building top-quality hospitals right there in Saudi and Dubai, and they didn't want to come to chilly damp Scotland. In the end the NHS acquired the facility and set it up as an elective-only unit. Several of my relations and acquaintances have been treated there. They say it's very stylish indeed, and they get great treatment. The NHS even took over the attached hotel so that patients coming from a distance (from the islands for example, like one of my cousins) can have their relatives staying beside them when they have surgery. That's free too.

So, while it's possible someone might indeed by bumped from a reconstructive surgery slot to treat an emergency like that child, the resulting delay for them wouldn't be as bad as it might have been say 10 or 20 years ago. And the main reason for that is political pressure from patients, which can be exerted directly on the responsible politicians in a universal healthcare system.

Rolfe.
 
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So, while it's possible someone might indeed by bumped from a reconstructive surgery slot to treat an emergency like that child, the resulting delay for them wouldn't be as bad as it might have been say 10 or 20 years ago. And the main reason for that is political pressure from patients, which can be exerted directly on the responsible politicians in a universal healthcare system.

Word! Thanks for you breakdown of the video BTW. Making this thread was easier than referring people to it in the other to get rebutts. That was a pretty thorough trashing of Stossel I'd say, LOL!
 
It's because I don't have an answer. I was asking how likely it would be for this to happen under UHC because I know they prioritize by need there, and I'm trying to make sure theres not a double standard.


What sort of double standard are you worried about?

I remember one case! My PhD supervisor liked hillwalking. He had been out on the hill and he looked like a tramp. He showed up at A&E at an unfamiliar rural hospital with a cut on his face caused by a fall. He looked like a tramp who'd been in a fight.

The junior doctor on duty sewed him up with about four large sutures, result something like Frankenstein. Then somebody got round to taking down some details. Name? Title? What? Doctor Bogan?

Oh, you know, I think I'll just revise that suture line a little, Dr. Bogan. Could you sit down again for a moment? And the junior unpicked the Igor-stitches and did it again with about 20 neat fine miniature stitches to get perfect apposition of the wound.

So yeah. There is two-tier service. Ain't that terrible!

Rolfe.
 
Stossel and Moore going at each other was amusing, since, frankly, I don't trust EITHER of them.
I beleive in some form of UHC, but am opposed to Moore's advocacy of a pretty rigid one payer system.and think his "Let's take profit out of medical care" is incredibly utopian and unrealistic.
 
Word! Thanks for you breakdown of the video BTW. Making this thread was easier than referring people to it in the other to get rebutts. That was a pretty thorough trashing of Stossel I'd say, LOL!


Well, I'm not really laughing. It wasn't that funny.

What puzzles me is how come you even imagined that Stossel had "solved the health crisis". He himself didn't claim to have done any such thing. He didn't even look at how to deal with any big-ticket items of essential healthcare expenditure. He seemed to think that being able to wrongfoot Michael Moore when he had control of the questions and the editing was enough to make some sort of point.

Didn't you notice that his "solutions" (actually just a couple of mildly successful niche ideas) didn't address the problems he set out at the start of the programme? I mean not at all. No suggestion about how to decouple health insurance from employment. No suggestion about how to reduce the amount skimmed off by the insurance companies. No suggestion about how to make healthcare accessible for the disadvantaged.

He began by criticising the coupling of healthcare entitlement to employment. Easy target. But did he have an answer? Not even the ghost of a suggestion. But remember, like I keep saying, that's one of the great advantages of universal healthcare. You're free to make your employment choices without thinking about healthcare, and the burden of providing employees with health coverage is removed from businesses. I'm not quite sure why he didn't mention that....

He showed us that poor, poor woman with breast cancer and no insurance. Not her fault, it was just bad timing. But did he have an answer for her? No. Did he mention that in a universal system she'd have retained full healthcare entitlement during her transitional employment period, so that wouldn't have arisen in the first place? Funnily enough, no.

He showed us the man who was suspected of lying on his insurance application. Note how that worked. The minute the insurance company suspected that he might have lied, they cut him off. It was up to him to sue them to get reinstated. Good luck with that.... He had no entitlement to be covered until such time as the insurers proved their case in court. But suppose he had lied. The implication was that he had been uninsured, and had discovered that this lump on his leg might be malignant. He had then bought the insurance policy without coming clean about the lump, waited two weeks, and then "discovered" the lump.

We were told nothing about any reason there might have been for him not having had insurance in the first place. So how can we judge? Of course, he's another one that would have been entitled to care in a universal system, no quibbling. Was that pointed out? Oops, no.

There was a lot of irrelevant padding in there. Food insurance? You cannot be serious! Ford motor cars and mobile phones and lasik eye surgery and cosmetic surgery. Zero relevance to the questions at issue, and zero illumination of the problem. But it's amazing how much obfuscation you can stir up with bad analogies.

Then there was what can only be called a hatchet job done on universal healthcare systems. Cherrypicking headlines for examples of stuff that went wrong, apparently designed to scare the hell out of American viewers who don't know that this was not a fair portrayal of such systems. Yes, a two-second acknowledgement that Canadians are happy with their system - before spending about ten minutes finding about three people who had issues and giving them a platform to complain.

What he completely ignored was the difference in entitlement between the victims of the two systems. The victims of the US system had no redress. They'd fallen through the cracks. They weren't covered. Tough. In contrast the victims of universal healthcare failings are empowered by entitlement. Stossel obviously didn't consider that. Have you, Dan?

Rolfe.
 
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