Heliport tower ATC Sean Boger: ultimate validation of the north side approach

[ihaunter]

Choices
1) Boger did see the plane hit the Pentagon
- corressponds with all other witness accounts of the plane hitting the Pentagon, with the physical evidence that the plane hit the Pentagon and explains why the people on board Flight 77 were found in the Pentagon

2) Boger instead saw the plane enter a fireball
- problem, why would Boger then state that the plane caused the fireball given that it must still be in front of the Pentagon when the fireball occurs?

3) Boger saw the plane coming and ducked down prior to it reaching the Pentagon
- problem, the CiT just said that Boger saw it enter a fireball so this would place the aircraft even further out when the fireball occurs. If Boger did not see it enter a fireball but ducked before the plane reachs the Pentagon the CiT will have to come up with a distance away at which Boger ducked that would be consistent with the rest of Boger's statement and assume that Boger is directly lying (not mistaken) about seeing it hit. Boger has to duck when the aircraft is close enough that he would feel the grave danger but far enough away to have him assume an impact on a low floor of the building while having enough time to ascend and clear the building.


We know for certain that the plane was not skimming the earth and missing the Pentagon to the south. Absolutly no one reports such a thing.

Boger also heard the plane when it made its pass before turning. He assumes that the Dulles report of it being to his east when it did this to be accurate. But if it made the turn as described in the official narritive he would also have been able to hear it. In fact without the bulk of the Pentagon between him and the aircraft at this time he would be in a better position to hear it.

Absolutely. In my first post in this thread, the one I keep coming back to, I wasn't trying to make any actual argument. I was trying to get TLB to think about what he was saying and clarify it. It was an honest attempt to understand what he was talking about. But what we find is that, even if you assume most of what he says is true(not that there is any reason to), he either will not or can not support his argument.
Typically, the more evidence you bring forward, the clearer the narrative becomes. You narrow the possibilities until you come up with the most likely explanation that fits all of the evidence. Like the oft-used Sherlock Holmes quote, "Once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
But with CIT, every piece of evidence they claim supports them, only muddy the waters. Each witness they bring out adds another flight path that is inconsistent with all the previous ones. They have started with the improbable and worked their way towards the impossible. It would seem that asking CIT or their supporters for clarity is akin to asking a vampire for some garlic.

 

[bje]

In addition to that he was in the tower so for the plane to "fly over" the Pentagon it would have had to start climbing long before he would have felt the need to duck. That's not what he reports. Their morons for even trying to spin this one.

I'm still waiting for CIT to tell us why no one ever reported seeing what CIT claimed happened, to wit, this:

The silence is deafening.

 

[R.Mackey]

True to form you are yet again ignoring what's being said in favor of focusing on semantics.

No, it's not semantics. It's logic. The point of my last post is to explain that, no matter what you're arguing for, you're doing it wrong.

It's more than a little disturbing that you can't tell the difference between logical fallacies and mere semantics, but it does explain an awful lot about your approach -- both how you fell for such a ridiculous hypothesis in the first place, and your inability to understand the very, very many problems pointed out to you. Simply put, you're incapable of even understanding the criticism, and therefore have no chance to learn. See here for a scholarly explanation.

Your latest post, again, merely attacks me and is similarly rife with logical fallacies. In particular, this one always cracks me up:

Your status as a "NASA scientist" bolsters your hollow rhetoric and gives you the authority to which the members here can appeal.

This is classic ad Hominem, i.e. accusing me of Appeal to Authority. And it's false. Nowhere have I ever argued from my authority. But you're following the same pattern as every other conspiracy nut backed into a corner. Here is an example of another, equally illogical member of the Truth Movement pulling the same nonsense, and being roundly crushed over it, even by more insightful members of the Truth Movement. It's not an argument, it's an excuse for why you're losing the argument. Excuses aren't worth the pixels they're printed on.

Anyway, like I said in my last reply to you, "get a new act." You've brought us your new evidence, and we thank you for it. You've brought much more detail on your hypothesis, which I thank you for as well -- Mr. Ranke was quite vague about it in his previous appearances here, and you've clarified more than I expected. However, having seen your evidence and heard your argumentation, I remain firmly unconvinced, for reasons I've explained to you in this and other threads, as have many others.

That's the way it goes. So either step up your game, or you lose. What you've done since then is to simply restate your position, coupled with direct attacks on me and other posters, frequent Appeal to Motive and so on... and that's just plain boring. Nobody is going to be convinced by such a pathetic response, and consequently, I see no reason to respond.

Therefore, either bring something new, or be Ignored, just like all the rest who run out of stuff to say.

 

[Bobert]

Has the CIT CULT found Flight 77 and its passengers yet?

 

[BCR]

I am finding it interesting that this discussion seems to focus on the anomalies in Boger’s account (NEIT 299), forgetting that he was not alone at the time of the impact. To take his statement(s) out-of-context and not considering the cumulative accounts of the other persons present is a significant error. In addition to Boger, three other people were present at the helipad.

Jacqueline Kidd (NEIT 295)
Alan Wallace (NEIT 218)
Mark Skipper (NEIT 209)

There are multiple media accounts from all of these individuals, but I will focus on the CMH interviews because they were taken within months of the event and in a low-pressure environment where they had time to elaborate beyond media “sound bites”. What follows is a compilation of these interviews in context of what is known regarding the minutes just prior to the event.

Boger and Kidd were both assigned as controllers in the tower. They were aware of the attacks in NYC and according to Kidd; Boger was in a very heightened state of mind and very much aware that the Pentagon was a potential target.

So, Mr. (sp?) started getting a little nervous. And he was like -- I won't say panicking or freaking out, but you could tell he was a little on edge. Like, "Oh my goodness." And, myself, I was -- I guess, in a way, like in a denial. (Kidd, page 5)

After some discussion, she went downstairs to get her lunch out of her car, but fortunately stopped to use the restroom. Prior to her leaving, at some point she and Boger had noted a sound that later made him think the plane had flown over and circled around.

So we would actually be sitting up there and working, and hear a helicopter fly past, and we look at, and we say okay, that guy is talking to Washington.

But this particular day, we heard something. We heard a roooooooah, and so [redacted] was like what was that, and we both looked out the window, but we didn't see anything.

And that was the airplane, and he had flown past us, but we didn't see him, but we heard it. And so had we had seen that aircraft sooner or maybe realized how low he was, we could have probably called Washington and asked them if they were talking to him, and I don't know if we would have had enough time to do that. (Boger, page 22)

This had to occur prior to Kidd leaving to go downstairs and incidentally, a helicopter out of Andrews AFB did fly past the helipad area at around 8-9 minutes prior to impact. It was captured on the Doubletree video at around 10 minutes prior as it passed the south side and according to eyewitnesses reported by CNN, circled around to the helipad area (confirmed with DCA radar data). There is no mention of the helicopter in any of the CMH interviews, but considering Boger’s heightened state-of-awareness, this is very likely the source of the noise he is reporting since no other aircraft flew near the helipad in the 30 minutes prior to the event. After Kidd left the controller area, Boger was on the phone with his supervisor at Davidson Army Airfield up until a few minutes prior to the event.

And he was telling me - that how worried he was about that, that an aircraft can just easily do that. And he was telling me he remembered -- he was telling me that, I don't know what I'm going to do if I see a plane coming like that towards -- towards us. (NEIT 321, page 16)

You know, just normal conversation like, if something like that happens, you know, you get out of there, don't wait.

And I remember telling him also that, you know, all you guys make fun of me because I'm - look what's going on right now. I'll bet that has something to do with -- somebody is doing that intentionally.

And it was just talk between him and me. At the same time Washington National starts calling our facility and they're saying to recall all our traffic. (NEIT 321, page 18)

Meanwhile, two firefighters, Wallace and Skipper were outside the helipad tower towards the impact area at the fire truck. Skipper had pulled the truck out of its garage in the helipad tower to position it for the President’s expected arrival later in the day. He was examining some foam metering equipment on the fire truck with Wallace just prior to the event.

And I was just looking out the window and just looking out at the ground to see if everything was okay, because I knew that my boss was coming back up there that day, and I knew that because the planes had hit the World Trade Center that the DPS guys at the Pentagon were going to shut down everything. (Boger, page 10)

According to Boger, he was looking for the number to call his boss. According to his boss, he must have found the number because he was on the phone with him as Reagan began reacting to the approach of AAL77. At this time, Kidd is finishing up in the restroom while Wallace and Skipper have just cleared the front of the fire truck headed back to the tower.

And so I am looking out at the road, and I see the traffic has liked stop, and I look out the window and I just hear a -- I just see like the nose and the wing of an aircraft just like coming right at us, and he didn’t veer. (Boger, page 11)

In the meantime, Wallace looks to his left and sees the plane.

And somewhere in that area in front of the truck I just happened to look up to my left and see the airplane right there just a couple hundred yards away. (Wallace, page 8)

Wallace also drew a sketch of where he saw the plane, placing it at the area of the downed light poles and Lloyd England’s taxicab on Route 27.

And then you just heard the noise, and then he just smacked into the building, and when it hit the building, I am watching the plane go all the way into the building. (Boger, page 11)

Boger watches the plane crash into the building as Wallace and Skipper are running for their lives. But Skipper offers a similar statement in regards to the noise.

Didn't sound like anything until you actually hear it (Inaudible) I just remember starting to run. Heard the horrible crash behind me. Saw the next big orange glow (inaudible) on the ground. Getting myself up from the blast, and got our gear on, and started to go to work. (Skipper, page 4)

Boger reacts to the event by diving to the floor just after impact.

So once the plane went into the building, it exploded, and once it exploded, I hit the floor and just covered up my head. It was like glass shattering and ceilingtile was falling, and – (Boger, page 11)

At the time, Kidd was still in the building and only hears the plane and the impact event. However, Skipper is in agreement that first there was the sound of the impact event, then the fireball, validating Boger’s perception and reacting post-impact to the fireball.

Taken collectively and in-context, Boger’s account is perfectly harmonious with AAL77 impacting the Pentagon and a SoC flight path. I should also add that there is nothing to in them to support a NoC approach what-so-ever. As such, his later statement is either out-of-context or suffering from recall degradation in regards to NoC.

 

[TheLoneBedouin]

This is classic ad Hominem, i.e. accusing me of Appeal to Authority. And it's false. Nowhere have I ever argued from my authority.

Nor did I argue that you have!

You aren't even reading the quote that you are responding to.

I said:

"Your status as a "NASA scientist" bolsters your hollow rhetoric and gives you the authority to which the members here can appeal."

That does not mean that YOU appeal to authority.

It means that others appeal to YOUR authority.

Sorry Mackey but I don't believe that you don't understand the English language.

I think you are feigning obliviousness or confusion as a means to sidestep the discussion.

It would be slick if it wasn't already your established pattern.

 

[TheLoneBedouin]

911files,

Please.

You have provided nothing independent that refutes the north side approach of the attack jet or the northwest approach of the c-130.

Let us know when you can provide 13 or more first-hand accounts supporting the former or 6 or more first-hand accounts supporting the latter because as it stands you have zero of either.

But you do have an elaborate 2-plane disinfo conspiracy theory summarizing your work!

 

[BCR]

911files,

Please.

You have provided nothing independent that refutes the north side approach of the attack jet or the northwest approach of the c-130.

Let us know when you can provide 13 or more first-hand accounts supporting the former or 6 or more first-hand accounts supporting the latter because as it stands you have zero of either.

But you do have an elaborate 2-plane disinfo conspiracy theory summarizing your work!

Ah, you say the sweetest things

FYI - call us back when you have any evidence at all.

 

[R.Mackey]

[Bunch of whining deleted]

Very well, then it's "my established pattern" that I shall exercise, as I do whenever an opponent has nothing useful left to say.

Welcome to Ignore. You've certainly earned it.

That about wraps it up for the opposition here.

 

[Bell]

Damn Mackey! I was just starting to enjoy your pwning of TLB.

 

[R.Mackey]

It's like telling a joke. If you have to explain it, it isn't funny anymore.

Some people need everything explained, and even then don't get it. After a while, it's best to simply stop telling them jokes and find somebody with a better sense of humor.

 

[Lupie]

I realize I'm entering rather late in the game here, but R.Mackey, that's funny enough to make me almost spill my adult beverage.

 

[BCR]

It's like telling a joke. If you have to explain it, it isn't funny anymore.

Some people need everything explained, and even then don't get it. After a while, it's best to simply stop telling them jokes and find somebody with a better sense of humor.

The sad part is, TLB says the same old thing over-and-over-and-over, offering only faded eyewitness recall as evidence. For all of the anomalies, they all say the same thing, a plane flew into the Pentagon. So what is the point?

 

[Bell]

TLB is probably running over to his CIT buddies now, telling them how he owned Mackey so hard, that Mackey stopped debating him.

 

[1337m4n]

Nor did I argue that you have!

You aren't even reading the quote that you are responding to.

I said:

"Your status as a "NASA scientist" bolsters your hollow rhetoric and gives you the authority to which the members here can appeal."

That does not mean that YOU appeal to authority.

It means that others appeal to YOUR authority.

Please quote anyone appealing to Mackey's authority.

 

[1337m4n]

Some people need everything explained, and even then don't get it. After a while, it's best to simply stop telling them jokes and find somebody with a better sense of humor.

To paraphrase the bad guy from Galaxy Quest: If he doesn't understand, then you must explain it to him as you would a child. Like this:



You see, TLB, sometimes when a man and a woman are in love...

 

[twinstead]

It's obvious why TLB is CIT's waterboy; he's a walking, talking stereotype of an irrational conspiracy theorist. The bottom line to me is that he is touting every one of his hand-picked witnesses as being totally right about one thing, and to a man totally wrong about another thing. It's weird. And sad. And funny.

I laughed. I cried.

If anybody deserves an award, it's our buddy TLB.

 

[Bell]

I laughed. I cried.

This would have looked better with your previous avatar

 

[twinstead]

This would have looked better with your previous avatar

Yea, it doesn't have the same impact with the homeless cigar smoking lady, does it?

 

[The Big Dog]

You have provided nothing independent that refutes the north side approach of the attack jet or the northwest approach of the c-130.

Sure he has paperboy, he pointed to your buddies' "independent evidence" of Boger telling them the plane hit the Pentagon, silly! Also, your bizarre refusal to consider anything but the CIT's own heavily edited "materials" (and of course, not even all of them, like the part where all 13 of your witnesses say the plane hit the pentagon) renders any serious discussion with you pointless. But we try.

Say, I noted that your tubby buddy Aldo got all huffy when I pointed out he was a No Planer. "Let's make it clear that we do not promote a "no plane" theory and we do not allow association of such to be promoted on our boards," sez Aldo, in what I suppose passes for English somewhere.

So the "perps" flew two planes into the WTC, but at the Pentagon, drove an airliner at 45 degree PLUS bank, set up flash bang explosives, knocked down light poles, brainwashed old Lloyde, pulled up and over the Pentagon, which was blowing up as it did so, turned hard right and flew away over the South parking lot.

THAT is CIT's story, and by god those No Planers are sticking the hell to it!


Nice Cult ya got there paperboy.