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UK Railways

cj.23

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Dec 17, 2006
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I was just thinking, a return journey to a nearby town currently costs me 26% more by train (standard class) than if i was to drive and pay petrol. Would it not be in the governments interest to reduce traffic and increase environmentally friendly trains to legislate a cap on rail ticket costs, so that a return rail ticket was always cheaper than the same journey by a single occupant car?

Does a rail ticket being more expensive than a single occupant car doing the same journey (which makes no sense to me at all) actually hold true across the whole UK?

cj x
 
Does a rail ticket being more expensive than a single occupant car doing the same journey (which makes no sense to me at all) actually hold true across the whole UK?

cj x

Depends if you factor in the cost of parking and how far you book ahead but generaly yes. Increaseing passanger numbers isn't really an option since there is something of a lack of rolling stock.
 
Does a rail ticket being more expensive than a single occupant car doing the same journey (which makes no sense to me at all) actually hold true across the whole UK?
Here's a quick and dirty check (2008), and the answer is generally "Yes" in the case of a journey from London to another town, so probably more of a "Yes" for journeys that are not major hub-and-spoke.

In short, as I understand the "failure of rail privatisation"

1--Large underinvestment in the infrastructure in the last conservative government when rail was state-owned prior to 1996
2--(With the benefit of hindsight on the part of most) Flawed privatisation with incompatible incentive structures (Railtrack responsible for real estate and tracks, train operators responsible for trains and train services)
3--Some high-profile accidents in the late '90s/early '00s which--although they did not raise the death rate as high as it had been in the '70s and '80s--affected public tolerance to an extent that major spending was inevitable (and which led to the bankruptcy of Railtrack and its replacement by the government guaranteed company Network Rail)

So far, nobody has come up with a better solution.
 
It depends whether you consider the whole cost of running the car. Some time ago I kept a nauseatingly comprehensive spreadsheet on all of the costs of car ownershop over 4 years and 170,000 miles.

The car in question was bought second hand and the mileage was large (so depeciation was understated) but the cost of running a Mercedes C200 turned out to be 28p a mile, of which fuel was a little over 12p a mile.

On the other hand, the depreciation on a Fiat Coupe over 10 years and 40,000 miles was over 50p a mile, so it cost somewhere between 65 and 70p a mile to run.

Using a figure of 50p a mile (a reasonable cost of running a newish family car including depreciation), the cost of a round trip to London from Bristol is about £130 (plus parking). By train at peak time is well over £150. Off peak it can be as low as £24

Of course taking more than one person in the car only increases the cost by a tiny incremental amount. It's a direct multiplier on the train.

The scary thing is that the ticket cost only represents 50% of the total income, the rest is subsidy. So the true cost should be £300 :eek:

It seems to me like running a railway is a bit like running an opera house. The tickets are incredibly expensive, it's always sold out, the staff (performers) are paid a pittance and yet, somehow, they still can't make ends meet.

I realise that the train operating companies, train leasing companies, various rail maintenance companies and so forth are all making good money but it still seems incredible that it costs more to take 19th century technology to London from Bristol than it does to take 20th century technology to Rome.

Christian Wolmar has written some interesting books and articles on the railways.
 
As a Yank who have been in the UK several times, and has used the Uk Rail system entensively, I have to laugh when Brits complain about how bad their train system is.
Come to the US and try the American Rail systems for a while. You will realise how well off you are.
 
I was just thinking, a return journey to a nearby town currently costs me 26% more by train (standard class) than if i was to drive and pay petrol. Would it not be in the governments interest to reduce traffic and increase environmentally friendly trains to legislate a cap on rail ticket costs, so that a return rail ticket was always cheaper than the same journey by a single occupant car?

cj x


There isn't capacity in the system (especially at peak times) to encourage much more rail use. The fragmented nature of the system and it's cack-handed access rules also discourage long term investment. For example the service licence of the company who runs the direct service from here to London expires in 2014 with no guarentee of renewal. The licence (not in this case a franchise) also stipulates the level of service they can offer so there is no incentive to invest in extra capacity.

Steve
 
Come to the US and try the American Rail systems for a while. You will realise how well off you are.
No complaints from me about Metra out of Chicago to WI, other than the seats aren't too comfy and your locos make a louder racket. It was cheaper than here, though at 1.85 FX.
 
No complaints from me about Metra out of Chicago to WI, other than the seats aren't too comfy and your locos make a louder racket. It was cheaper than here, though at 1.85 FX.
While the trains in this area are pretty decent, I think he was more referencing the general lack of rail options that persist in much of the US. Over-priced still beats nonexistent.
 
While the trains in this area are pretty decent, I think he was more referencing the general lack of rail options that persist in much of the US. Over-priced still beats nonexistent.

True that. I like in a city with more than 400,000 people and no train station. It's absurd.
 
Really? I live in a one mile square town and I have a train station and two bus stops. It's very convenient. I guess it's a matter of where you live. Also NJ Transit has gotten a lot better and they are upgrading many of their cars to double deckers which are very nice.
 
Really? I live in a one mile square town and I have a train station and two bus stops. It's very convenient. I guess it's a matter of where you live. Also NJ Transit has gotten a lot better and they are upgrading many of their cars to double deckers which are very nice.

We do have three switchyards, but no passenger service for more than 40 years. It's very annoying since we're the only sizable population for 150+ miles.
 
Really? I live in a one mile square town and I have a train station and two bus stops. It's very convenient. I guess it's a matter of where you live. Also NJ Transit has gotten a lot better and they are upgrading many of their cars to double deckers which are very nice.
I think it's pretty obvious that the further west you go, and thus the later the area was settled, the less dense development you see, and therefore the less investment in railway infrastructure. This happened for a number of reasons, but the bottom line is that much of the US doesn't have much in the way of useful rail lines.
 
I think it's pretty obvious that the further west you go, and thus the later the area was settled, the less dense development you see, and therefore the less investment in railway infrastructure. This happened for a number of reasons, but the bottom line is that much of the US doesn't have much in the way of useful rail lines.

Exactly.Here in California we have a few useful commuter lines, but not much else.
 
I sometimes wonder how it would have been if Beeching hadn't.

And even if the pre-Beeching closures (Bluebell line, Dolphinton, lots of lines went before Beeching) hadn't happened either.

Crystal ball, anyone?

Rolfe.
 
I sometimes wonder how it would have been if Beeching hadn't.

And even if the pre-Beeching closures (Bluebell line, Dolphinton, lots of lines went before Beeching) hadn't happened either.

Crystal ball, anyone?

Rolfe.
I think it could go two ways:

1. The British taxpayer would have to pay more to subsidise the operation of additional, relatively quiet, routes.

2. Existing subsidies would have to be stretched further, draining funding away from more popular routes.

Or maybe more dramatically there might have been some tipping-point; the stagnant nationalised railway might have been pressured into making bigger reforms before privatisation (or perhaps even postponing privatisation), with the additional "beeching" routes being the straw that breaks the camel's back. Then we'd get even deeper into speculation though!
 
I blame it on privatisation.

I recoment rasing car and fuel taxes to pay for more and free public transportation.
That should help on the congestion in the cities too.
 
I was just thinking, a return journey to a nearby town currently costs me 26% more by train (standard class) than if i was to drive and pay petrol. Would it not be in the governments interest to reduce traffic and increase environmentally friendly trains to legislate a cap on rail ticket costs, so that a return rail ticket was always cheaper than the same journey by a single occupant car?
No, it would not be in the rail companies interest which means the government would have to subsidise them further (or receive less for the franchises). While less traffic is in the government's interest they are not willing to pay for it (well not willing to pay that much)
 
I blame it on privatisation.

I recoment rasing car and fuel taxes to pay for more and free public transportation.
That should help on the congestion in the cities too.
So do I. but think that owners of historic vehicles should get a fuel subsidy. I don't pay any road tax but at 20 miles a gallon I could do with a fuel discount so I could spread more public joy driving around in my 36 year old VW camper van.
 
I was just thinking, a return journey to a nearby town currently costs me 26% more by train (standard class) than if i was to drive and pay petrol.
...
Does a rail ticket being more expensive than a single occupant car doing the same journey (which makes no sense to me at all) actually hold true across the whole UK?

cj x
Well, no. My MetroCard costs me £685-10 p.a. This covers my daily journey to work (13 miles each way), plus all other local train and bus transport. Think for a moment how much I would have to pay to run a car (including depreciation etc.) just to get to work (which I don’t – we are a one-car couple).

Really? I live in a one mile square town and I have a train station and two bus stops. It's very convenient. I guess it's a matter of where you live. Also NJ Transit has gotten a lot better and they are upgrading many of their cars to double deckers which are very nice.
Just returned from a business trip to NYC, and had to get myself to and from Newark Liberty Airport. Took the NJ Transit this time – it was very convenient and reasonably cheap, but on the other hand you don’t have to mind sitting in a dirty carriage on ripped seats. On a previous trip I took an Amtrak train on the same route, and was seriously impressed by the standard of both the accommodation and the timekeeping (departed and arrived almost to the second). Expensive, though, cf UK prices.

Also thought the arrangements at Penn Station NYC a bit primitive – the train arrives, the “track” (platform) is announced, and there is a mad dash to the staircase/escalator. You are elderly, disabled, burdened by heavy luggage: you are going to be at the back of the queue. Is there some reason we can’t be waiting on the platform? (doesn’t seem to cause a problem in UK).

I love trains - always have, always will - from earliest memories of seaside and countryside excursions from the city. Even enjoy my daily journey to work - which only goes to prove that I’m a sad, sad individual.
 

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