10 story hole in WTC 7 - Part II

Bingo. Thank you for illuminating the subject so crisply (tho - little good will it it do us :rolleyes: )
Your ability to deny the obvious is unlimited. :boggled:

The metal was molten weeks later. Something melted it. Only thermite can do that. Something kept it molten for weeks.
 
C7 - What is the difference between liquid and molten? You've answered other posts why not mine?
 
There were no other metals in enough quantity to account for the molten metal found under all three buildings.

If the temperatures were hot enough to melt steel then where's all of the molten concrete as well? Iron melts at near 1500oC, but the same is true for many of the silicate minerals used in concrete, and a mix of these minerals could melt at lower temperatures than the individual components, and the fine partical size of the pulverized material would only facilitate that. If we assumed your contention is correct -- including the unrealistically high amounts of molten steel you propose -- then why aren't there huge pools of molten concrete as well in both the WTC 7 pile and the WTC 1 & 2 pile?


Furthermore, aluminum would be liquid at these temperatures.
This line is just random... All I can say to this is...... duh? Alimuminum does have a significantly lower melting point than steel, but how does this relate to what you're arguing? The temperatures required for melting aluminum were very easily attainable by the rubble fires...

No
Free fall can only occur if there is NO resistance. ALL the supports have to fail on 8 floors. This can happen 1 floor at a time but supporting columns on all 8 floors have to fail in 2.25 seconds.
See, this line of argument has always been weird... whether a building's support members are intentionally removed to facilitate collapse or the structural members fail because they are damaged to the point that they can no longer sustain their loads, when they fall the collapse is always governed by gravity. Even if you could miraculously remove the first five floors or the first half of the building from below, the upper floors will only fall as fast a gravity is able to accelerate it. Once the structure begins to collapse, why in the hell does anyone need to do anything to make it faster? Gravity has a proficient record for pulling things down

Wrong!

The exposure is good, the colors are close, obviously shot by a pro. He/she has adjusted for the light.
You are in denial grasping for a reason.

Without having the original picture from which this was taken, it is impossible to professionally determine that the camera settings are optimal for analyzing it with reasonable accuracy. Certainly the picture is crisp, but the clarity says nothing about the accuracy of the colors compared to what the human eye would see in real time. In short, your opinion based on the clarity of the image is irrelevant. I downloaded the picture and imported it into Lighroom to see if I could get the camera settings, but of course with copies that have been altered in a multitude of ways obtaining this information usually contained in the RAW file is not possible, and I cannot therefore verify the arperture settings, or exposure rate.


Something kept it molten for weeks.
So you've changed your position on this again? Just a few months ago you were telling me that molten steel being found weeks later impossible for thermite to do was "reverse logic." That nothing could have produced this molten metal except for thermite. You were quite set on on this logic. What made you change your mind?
 
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C7 - What is the difference between liquid and molten? You've answered other posts why not mine?
Molten:
1) changed to liquid form by heat
2) glowing with great heat

Probably the best way to put it is: a metal is molten when gravity can deform it.
 
If the temperatures were hot enough to melt steel then where's all of the molten concrete as well?
Give it up Griz.

If you want to deny that the molten metal under all three buildings is steel/iron then you will keep double talking around the truth forever.


BTW: Free fall cannot happen in the progressive collapse NIST proposes and did not happen in their computer model.
 
Give it up Griz.
If you want to deny that the molten metal under all three buildings is steel/iron then you will keep double talking around the truth forever.
The burden of proof is yours to offer sufrficient evidence that supports your claim. Sunstealer has even suggested that you do the appropriate calculations which -- if correct -- could either significantly substantiate your claim or prove it invalid. You've flip flopped on positions you held in the past and now have an entirely different position on them without explaining the reasons behind such changes in mind set. You're doing harm to your own argument when you blatently refuse to either take on qualified suggestions for further research or when you willingly produce patently stupid theories.


BTW: Free fall cannot happen in the progressive collapse NIST proposes and did not happen in their computer model.
That's your opinion, but I've made this clear already in my last response, which you conveniently dodged. I can offer valid questions and point out your errors. You're responsible for making the amends. Since you choose not to, all the more power to you... nobody's stopping you from making incredulous arguments, that's you're credibility at stake though...
 
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Molten:
1) changed to liquid form by heat
2) glowing with great heat

Probably the best way to put it is: a metal is molten when gravity can deform it.
Then you are using the incorrect definition.

Molten means in a liquid state.

molten adj in a melted state; liquefied • molten metal.
ETYMOLOGY: 14c; an old past participle of melt.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=molten

You have made up your own definition. Molten is always a liquid (certainly in metallurgical terms). I have never heard anyone ever use your definition to do with gravity. Secondly if your photo shows what you define as molten then the shape of the hot metal would be far more deformed. There doesn't seem to be much deformation in the photo. So the photo even debunks your made up definition.
 
Chris we are aware of your opinion in these matters. For me, the issue is, and always has been, that so many experts who's opinions carry weight with me disagree with you. Until you can turn some heads among bona fide experts in the relative sciences I could frankly care less what you think.

You may not like it, and may similarly not care what I think, but that's the way a whole crap load of people think.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
The burden of proof is yours to offer sufrficient evidence that supports your claim.
Then you are using the incorrect definition.
Molten means in a liquid state.
You are arguing semantics. To what end?

I have made the case several times. If you guys want to deny that the molten metal was steel, go right ahead.

Do you want to deny that WTC 7 fell at free fall?

That cannot happen in the NIST progressive collapse and did not happen in their computer model.
 
Chris we are aware of your opinion in these matters. For me, the issue is, and always has been, that so many experts who's opinions carry weight with me disagree with you.
Name one expert that says the molten metal is something other than steel or iron.

Name one expert that says NIST's progressive collapse can result in free fall.
 
No I am not arguing semantics at all. Molten means liquid. Liquid and solid are not the same. It is a very important distinction. Do you understand this diagram?

fetch.php


http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=iron-carbon_phase_diagram
 
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entirely off topic, apologies funk de fino
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C7

Please show me the loading ramp on the plan drawing of the building.

Show me evidence that Mike was talking about southwest generators. Stop making assumptions.

Any further derails about molten metal will be reported.
 
C7

Please show me the loading ramp on the plan drawing of the building.
Find it yourself. :mad:

Show me evidence that Mike was talking about southwest generators. Stop making assumptions.
I already did. See post 15. :confused:

Any further derails about molten metal will be reported.
Oh No! Not that ! :eek:



Y'all can tell each other that the molten metal isn't steel or iron. I don't care. The evidence is clear. The glob in the crab claw is molten steel/iron. The colors in the photo are reasonably accurate. You are just being a smartass or you are getting paid to deny anything that disproves the Official Conspiracy Theory.
 
Find it yourself. :mad:
Y'all can tell each other that the molten metal isn't steel or iron. I don't care. The evidence is clear. The glob in the crab claw is molten steel/iron. The colors in the photo are reasonably accurate. You are just being a smartass or you are getting paid to deny anything that disproves the Official Conspiracy Theory.
Nobody's being a "smartass" or anything, it's simple things that deal with photography. I'd be willing to venture that the item in the photo is reasonably hot, but unless you have the information concerning the exposure, aperture, and white balance settings I fail to see how it's an accurate representation for the sole purpose of using a temperature color chart to determine temperature. Placing that aside, the item you seem interested seems to be in a reasonable pliable state, given that a grab claw (or whatever you want to call it) is able to pick it up. It's clearly not in a full liquid state

As for the accusation that people are getting "paid" to to "deny" anything that disproves what you refer to as the "OCT," typical youtube crapola... I'm sorry to disappoint but the only job I've ever held and been paid for is my employment at a small architecture firm for an internship. That's irrelevant to this discussion however, as are your side accusations...
 
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You can get testy all you want, Chris. The question remains: how many qualified people need to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about before you start actually thinking about it?
 
Find it yourself. :mad:

I already did. See post 15. :confused:

Oh No! Not that ! :eek:



Y'all can tell each other that the molten metal isn't steel or iron. I don't care. The evidence is clear. The glob in the crab claw is molten steel/iron. The colors in the photo are reasonably accurate. You are just being a smartass or you are getting paid to deny anything that disproves the Official Conspiracy Theory.

According to Alan Pense, Prof Emeritus of metalurgical engineering at Lehigh University he states that the photo appears to be mostly glass with unmelted steel rods in it.
It's in the Debunking 9/11 Myths book.

Glass
http://www.childrensmuseum.org/themuseum/fireworks_ofglass/images/artofglassblowing/bench.jpg
Crane photo...
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/molten_steel.jpg
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

One other note, it also depends on which color chart one wants to use. According to Steven Jones, he put the temp at 845-1040C unlike Chris's chart which puts it at a higher 1200C+.
 
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