Universal Health Care in the US. Yea or Nea?

[Lonewulf]

What astonishes me about the detractors is their apparent inability to empathise with any of the non-freeloading situations. Many, many people who find themselves in need of expensive healthcare are in that position through no fault of their own.

It seems to be the belief that if you're not making it in America, it's because you're lazy or on drugs, and ergo deserve whatever happens to you.

This sounds like a terrible strawman, but I've seen the word "lazy" thrown around so many times on this board... even someone who was HOSPITALIZED for anxiety attacks was called "lazy"! Yes, mental illness just means you're lazy!

 

[Rolfe]

Replace the word “healthcare” with “education” in this thread and see how you feel about it.

I’ve gone to my kids’ school and found that some kids were sleeping in class.

Why should I pay for their laziness? The parents of these kids probably sit around all day watching American Idol and eating bon bons! I work my butt off all day then come home and make sure my kids do their homework. Teachers end up spending more time reviewing lessons for these lazy kids than they do educating mine with new material. I’m sick of it! I don’t want to pay for lazy little buggers to sleep during the day.

Now let’s try replacing “healthcare” with “police”.

I live in a good part of town. We don’t have a lot of crime here yet my municipal taxes keep going up to hire more police because of gang violence on the other side of town. I’m sick of it and shouldn’t have to pay to protect people who choose to live in the wrong part of town. Their plight does not affect me so why do I have to pay for them to pick up the phone and call the cops every time they here a gunshot? They should be hiring their own cops if they want safer neighbourhoods!

How about “fire department”?

My house was built in 2004 and everything in it complies with current codes. Drive 3 blocks to the south of here and the houses were all built 40, 50 even 60 years ago to different codes...if any. There has never been a fire on my block yet it seems like the fire department responds to 3-4 calls a year to that older neighbourhood. It’s costing us a fortune!

Look, neither my wife nor I smoke and when we renovated our basement we had a master electrician pull a permit and wire everything to meet current codes. The chances of us having a fire in this house are slim to none so I think I should be able to withhold the portion of my tax dollars that goes to the fire department. If you choose to smoke or live in an old house then you pay the consequences!

I realise these are simple examples Dan but I wonder how libertarian you are when it comes to other essential services. Why is healthcare so different from education or police protection? Is healthcare somehow not essential to the well being of your country in the same sense as education? Would you feel like a socialist if a fire broke out in your house and you had to call the fire department? How is taxpayer funding of healthcare socialism yet taxpayer funding of education and police/fire departments not socialism?

Well, that was going to be my next post, but I've been gazumped.

Where are the rants about being forced to pay for the education of other people's children? I have no children,* why should those sex-mad libertines who have all these children not face up to their responsibilities and pay to have the brats educated?

Where are the rants about the fire department? I've never had a fire in my house, and I've chosen to equip it with fire extinguishers and a sprinkler system just in case.* Why should I be forced to pay for the extinguishing of blazes in these unsafe, jerry-built shanty towns where all the fires break out?

Where are the rants about the police? I live in a gated community, and we employ our own security guards.* Why should I have to pay for the police to clean out these horrid lower-class neighbourhoods I wouldn't venture into on a bet?

Where are the rants about the highway taxes? I only ride a bicycle.* Why should I have to pay taxes so that these tearaway teenagers can roar around in their badly-maintained trucks?

Where are the rants about rubbish collection? I generate very little rubbish, and recycle most of what I do generate.* Why should I be forced to pay to have these piles of pizza boxes and beer cans picked up from my lazy slob of a neighbour's house?

* Note that this "I" has been invented purely for the purpose of the discussion.

Why is it that most Americans accept socialised education, policing, firefighting and highways without much or any resistance, but the minute there is any suggestion of extending this to healthcare, it's "Oh noes! Layabouts want to be entitled to steal my cash!"

Even when it's pointed out that in the present system the layabouts are "stealing" your cash, and the main difference is simply that you yourself have no right to benefit from the money you're shelling out, the complaint persists.

No, I don't understand it either.

Rolfe.

 

[Lonewulf]

Where are the rants about being forced to pay for the education of other people's children? I have no children,* why should those sex-mad libertines who have all these children not face up to their responsibilities and pay to have the brats educated?

Can't those brats learn personal responsibility? If they need to get education, have them work for it! Child labor laws should so be repealed.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

Well, that was going to be my next post, but I've been gazumped..

I have no idea what "gazumped" means but I'm sure my father had a homeopathic cure for it.

Where are the rants about being forced to pay for the education of other people's children? I have no children,* why should those sex-mad libertines who have all these children not face up to their responsibilities and pay to have the brats educated?.

My work is slowing down. Any idea if the sex mad libertines are hiring? I promise not to be lazy (although you may find me laying down on the job occasionally)!

Where are the rants about the fire department? I've never had a fire in my house, and I've chosen to equip it with fire extinguishers and a sprinkler system just in case.* Why should I be forced to pay for the extinguishing of blazes in these unsafe, jerry-built shanty towns where all the fires break out?

Where are the rants about the police? I live in a gated community, and we employ our own security guards.* Why should I have to pay for the police to clean out these horrid lower-class neighbourhoods I wouldn't venture into on a bet?

Where are the rants about the highway taxes? I only ride a bicycle.* Why should I have to pay taxes so that these tearaway teenagers can roar around in their badly-maintained trucks?

Where are the rants about rubbish collection? I generate very little rubbish, and recycle most of what I do generate.* Why should I be forced to pay to have these piles of pizza boxes and beer cans picked up from my lazy slob of a neighbour's house?

I think we're neighbours. I would greatly appreciate it if your dog would quit crapping on my lawn. I keep sweeping it into the street and you know what it costs to keep the streets clean around here.

* Note that this "I" has been invented purely for the purpose of the discussion.

Thats your story and you're sticking to it?

Why is it that most Americans accept socialised education, policing, firefighting and highways without much or any resistance, but the minute there is any suggestion of extending this to healthcare, it's "Oh noes! Layabouts want to be entitled to steal my cash!"

Even when it's pointed out that in the present system the layabouts are "stealing" your cash, and the main difference is simply that you yourself have no right to benefit from the money you're shelling out, the complaint persists.

No, I don't understand it either.

I'm flummoxed, gazumped and a little bit gusuntited myself.

 

[Francesca R]

I have no idea what "gazumped" means

It's from an era in the dim and distant (pre housing slump) past.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

It's from an era in the dim and distant (pre housing slump) past.

Ahhhh, dim and distant like August 2008.

 

[legne]

What are you arguing about? What's the problem? Someone fill me in please. =/

 

[Porkpie Hat]

Can't those brats learn personal responsibility? If they need to get education, have them work for it! Child labor laws should so be repealed.

I agree, if children want labor laws they should pay for them out of their own bloody pockets.

 

[Random]

The other day I saw a morbidly obese woman and all five of her morbidly obese kids standing in line at the grocery store with a cart full of potato chips, soda, pizza rolls, and everything else she could find it the store that would make her fatter AND SHE PAID WITH FOODSTAMPS!!!. So when her fat butt gets diabetes from all that junk food, guess what? I'm going to have to shell over the cash to pay for her food, her kids food, and her medical bills!! You don't see anything wrong with that situation??

Just wanted to address this one briefly. Healthy food (low calorie, high nutrition) costs significantly more than junk food (high calorie, low nutrition). For individuals on a tight budget (such as someone receiving food stamps), junk food may be the only way to put food on the table on a regular basis. This is one major reason why you see obese people living in poverty.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Saying "Universal Health Care is cheaper for us, so it will be cheaper for you" is ridiculous. You can use as many examples of countries less than half our size you want, it still doesn't mean it is true.

So you people are saying that someone who doesn't work, pay their tax, or contribute to society in general, should be able to reap the benefits of my hard work?? That doesn't sound right. Even uni-health depends on people contributing tax for it to succeed.

I think it's fine if you all believe waving the comm....er, uh socialist wand will fix everything with our HC, but I don't. I suggest we fix the current system and go with what we have. I can suggest ways of doing this but I'm sure its been done here. I'd be glad to hear anyones PROOF that their way is better, but I'm sure all I'll get are a hundred more reasons we should be like Europe.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Not quite - we are commenting that most (if not all) universal health care systems throughout he world are cheaper to run and result in better health outcomes for the populations than the system the USA currently has.
.

That's fine. So you are saying that because its cheaper in several countries, that it'll also be cheaper for us then?

Since we are not talking about just one example (e.g. the NHS) it is not a unreasonable conjecture to assume that the USA could also provide a universal health care system that is cheaper and results in better health care outcomes for the population that the system it currently has.

The "extraordinary" claim is the one that the USA is somehow very different to all these other countries and therefore a USA universal health care system would cost more than what the USA population currently spends

You live in the UK. The UK is roughly the size of Oregon. The UK is 1/5 the population of the US. Is it really that extraordinary to think there will be differences?

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Just wanted to address this one briefly. Healthy food (low calorie, high nutrition) costs significantly more than junk food (high calorie, low nutrition). For individuals on a tight budget (such as someone receiving food stamps), junk food may be the only way to put food on the table on a regular basis. This is one major reason why you see obese people living in poverty.

You don't know anyone on food stamps. The more babies you keep having, the more stamps you get.

 

[oggiesnr]

I think it's fine if you all believe waving the comm....er, uh socialist wand will fix everything with our HC, but I don't.

Believing in society and community does not make one a socialist or a communist. Neither does paying taxes to help your fellow citizens.

Steve

 

[quixotecoyote]

You live in the UK. The UK is roughly the size of Oregon. The UK is 1/5 the population of the US. Is it really that extraordinary to think there will be differences?

per capita


Definition
Average per person.

http://www.investorwords.com/3657/per_capita.html

 

[Random]

You don't know anyone on food stamps. The more babies you keep having, the more stamps you get.

Ah, the tired old “having babies to get more money from the government” claptrap. Have you ever sat down and figured out how much money welfare recipients get for each kid? It's not nearly enough to make up for the costs and expenses of raising that extra kid, in no small part thanks to the government not wanting childbirth while on welfare to be a revenue generating proposition.

Do you honestly think that any politician would support a system that makes it profitable to have extra children while on welfare?

Here’s a fun exercise. Make up a family on welfare. Use your imagination. Then, go to this website and plug in their information to find out how much they get in food stamps. You will probably be surprised.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

http://www.investorwords.com/3657/per_capita.html

are you serious?

I'm talking about things like gas costs. If I live in a state bigger than the UK, and I need to ride in an ambulance a longer distance to get to a hospital, wouldn't the cost be more. I realize what per capita means, but that doesn't change the point I'm making. The gas cost is more either way. So are you done being silly or do you need to make more people on the internet think you're funny?

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Ah, the tired old “having babies to get more money from the government” claptrap. Have you ever sat down and figured out how much money welfare recipients get for each kid? It's not nearly enough to make up for the costs and expenses of raising that extra kid, in no small part thanks to the government not wanting childbirth while on welfare to be a revenue generating proposition.

I personally know people who don't have jobs, get food stamps, are on medicaid, are supplied housing for 17 dollars a month, and are just having more babies. It seems to be working okay for that person. Do you have any experience with the welfare system? I'm sure you read all about it in a book somewhere, but do you know someone on it?? I'm not saying all people abuse it (and I know some people take advantage of it temporarily to get back on their feet) but there are way too many abusers. Our system can't work the way it is designed to with so many abusers and/or bad practices.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Well, if Stanley knows a guy, that pretty much clinches things, doesn't it?

 

[quixotecoyote]

are you serious?

I'm talking about things like gas costs. If I live in a state bigger than the UK, and I need to ride in an ambulance a longer distance to get to a hospital, wouldn't the cost be more. I realize what per capita means, but that doesn't change the point I'm making. The gas cost is more either way. So are you done being silly or do you need to make more people on the internet think you're funny?

I'll be very interested to see your evidence that the per capita difference in health care cost is primarily caused by geography.

 

[Rolfe]

Saying "Universal Health Care is cheaper for us, so it will be cheaper for you" is ridiculous. You can use as many examples of countries less than half our size you want, it still doesn't mean it is true.

Well, I've heard of "economy of scale", but this is an interesting proposition - the absolute converse.

Oooh, it might cost a bit more per capita - because.... er, what? Because some people's ambulance trips might be a bit longer than average! God give me strength. And just what percentage of healthcare might ambulance trips make up, pray? And remember, you're comparing with a country where patients are regularly airlifted to hospital from outlying islands by air ambulance or helicopter.

But no, fuel costs for the ambulances are a sufficient burden to justify junking the whole idea!!

Running out of arguments, much?

Rolfe.