Catholic Church to Bring Back Indulgences

[Puppycow]

Story

Looks like the current Pope is serious about turning back the clock for the Catholic Church.

Like the Latin Mass and meatless Fridays, the indulgence was one of the traditions decoupled from mainstream Catholic practice in the 1960s by the Second Vatican Council, the gathering of bishops that set a new tone of simplicity and informality for the church. Its revival has been viewed as part of a conservative resurgence that has brought some quiet changes and some highly controversial ones, like Pope Benedict XVI’s recent decision to lift the excommunications of four schismatic bishops who reject the council’s reforms.

The indulgence is among the less noticed and less disputed traditions to be restored. But with a thousand-year history and volumes of church law devoted to its intricacies, it is one of the most complicated to explain.

According to church teaching, even after sinners are absolved in the confessional and say their Our Fathers or Hail Marys as penance, they still face punishment after death, in Purgatory, before they can enter heaven. In exchange for certain prayers, devotions or pilgrimages in special years, a Catholic can receive an indulgence, which reduces or erases that punishment instantly, with no formal ceremony or sacrament.

There are partial indulgences, which reduce purgatorial time by a certain number of days or years, and plenary indulgences, which eliminate all of it, until another sin is committed. You can get one for yourself, or for someone who is dead. You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day.

 

[Wolfman]

Hey, if I was ever going to start my own religion, I'd absolutely include indulgences! And none of this "you can't buy them" nonsense, either...we'll sell them to anyone and everyone seeking forgiveness without wanting to bother with all that "confession" and "penance" nonsense.

Sample Price Sheet^*Small lie -- $15.00
Big lie -- $50.00
Theft -- 10% of the value of the theft
Lust (unfulfilled) -- $15.00
Lust (fulfilled) -- $50.00
Attempted murder -- $1000
Successful murder -- $5000

^* Add 50% if you are purchasing indulgence in anticipation of committing said sin at some future time

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Well, they've got to pay off the child molestation settlements somehow.

 

[Hokulele]

Hey, if I was ever going to start my own religion, I'd absolutely include indulgences! And none of this "you can't buy them" nonsense, either...we'll sell them to anyone and everyone seeking forgiveness without wanting to bother with all that "confession" and "penance" nonsense.

Wait, is lying really a sin?

What would blasphemy set me back in your religion?

 

[Flo]

Hey, if I was ever going to start my own religion, I'd absolutely include indulgences! And none of this "you can't buy them" nonsense, either...we'll sell them to anyone and everyone seeking forgiveness without wanting to bother with all that "confession" and "penance" nonsense.

Sample Price Sheet^*Small lie -- $15.00
Big lie -- $50.00
Theft -- 10% of the value of the theft
Lust (unfulfilled) -- $15.00
Lust (fulfilled) -- $50.00
Attempted murder -- $1000
Successful murder -- $5000

^* Add 50% if you are purchasing indulgence in anticipation of committing said sin at some future time

You forgot one of the main point (and I'm surprised the Cath. Church didn't think of it earlier): Make the validity of those indulgences limited in time, in order to attract return consumers.

Take example from the Japanese: when you purchase a lucky charm in a temple or a sanctuary, you're supposed to return it to the temple or sanctuary around the new year and have it burned (against a small money offering) on a consecrated fire while a monk chants some sutras, then buy a new one. The rationale is that the charm might discharge the bad luck it has protected you from if you keep it longer than its "use by date".

 

[Wolfman]

Wait, is lying really a sin?

In my religion, practically everything is going to be a sin. That's what drives the whole indulgences thing. However, the majority of them will be minor sins, with quite easy, minimal payments.

What would blasphemy set me back in your religion?

Blasphemy wouldn't be a biggie in my religion...pretty much on par with a small lie.

You forgot one of the main point (and I'm surprised the Cath. Church didn't think of it earlier): Make the validity of those indulgences limited in time, in order to attract return consumers.

Yup, very good point. Indulgences will be issued in the form of coupons, with an expiry date.

I could also offer bulk packages; spend $1000, and you can get $1200 worth of indulgences (your choice) bundled together. Or, if you're planning a murder spree, $15,000 for $20,000 worth of indulgences.

There would also be a special VIP membership plan, whereby you automatically tithe 10% of your income (if your income is above a certain level), and you'd not only get a discount on purchasing indulgences, but they'd also have a longer expiration term.

This is a very flexible system, that benefits everyone. We get your money, and you get peace of mind.

 

[alfaniner]

Hey, if it works for carbon offsets... Maybe the one section could be called carnal offsets.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I didn't think indulgences ever went away. I've got Catholic funeral prayer cards (from my life time anyway) that offer 30 days indulgence for the dead person every time you say the prayer.

ETA: I was born in '61 so most of my memories are post Vatican II.

 

[geni]

Hey, if it works for carbon offsets... Maybe the one section could be called carnal offsets.

Been done. You needed an indulgence to marry your cousin. Not too bad an idea. Allows for occasional cousin marrages but prevents it becomeing prevalent. Then someone worked out they could get more money if they applied it to second cousins as well. After that things went a bit critical and I think they got as far as about 6th cousin.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Actually I think indulgences fits in well with Christian theology. If Jesus' death is what made up for Original Sin of mankind, then it's obvious that moral accountability is transferable.

It transferred from Adam & Eve's sin to the rest of mankind. Then from mankind to Jesus (a debt his representatives on Earth like to remind you about all the time). Oh yeah--it can also transfer from fathers to sons and so on.

So my doing a good act or saying a prayer on someone else's behalf (to bail them out of purgatory a bit sooner), makes perfect sense in this system.

 

[fuelair]

I didn't think indulgences ever went away. I've got Catholic funeral prayer cards (from my life time anyway) that offer 30 days indulgence for the dead person every time you say the prayer.

ETA: I was born in '61 so most of my memories are post Vatican II.

And 30 days off "until the end of time" accomplishes what exactly?

 

[kerikiwi]

Do you get a ticket to show to the gatekeeper?

 

[Wolfman]

And 30 days off "until the end of time" accomplishes what exactly?

This applies to Purgatory, not to Hell. There is time in Purgatory...and it is not endless.

 

[Fnord]

Atheism is looking progressively more attractive with each passing day.

 

[X]

Atheism is looking progressively more attractive with each passing day.

Speaking of which...

What's the charge for being a non-believer/non-Catholic?

 

[Wolfman]

Speaking of which...

What's the charge for being a non-believer/non-Catholic?

For non-believers, we offer a special package deal. A one-time payment of $150 grants you a non-believer's indulgence; this doesn't grant you forgiveness, but it does give you a chance to go to Purgatory, rather than straight to Hell. That way, once you've discovered you're wrong, you can use your time in Purgatory to atone for your past misdeeds and lack of faith.

A real "Get Out of Jail Free" card, for those who think this all sounds like a load of bollocks...but want to play it safe, just in case.

 

[X]

A real "Get Out of Jail Free" card, for those who think this all sounds like a load of bollocks...but want to play it safe, just in case.

I was thinking more as something to use against proselytizers.

"Look! I already paid! Now you can leave me alone, and not worry about saving my eternal soul."

 

[Wolfman]

I was thinking more as something to use against proselytizers.

"Look! I already paid! Now you can leave me alone, and not worry about saving my eternal soul."

Heck, that's even easier.

I want you to join my religion so that I can get your money. If you have no money, I don't want you in my religion. So just become a homeless, penniless bum, and I promise that me and my people will stay completely away from you.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

This applies to Purgatory, not to Hell. There is time in Purgatory...and it is not endless.

Yep.

I think some people don't quite get the idea of what indulgences are.

It's not a free pass for a particular sin (that would be a "pardon"). It's just strictly time off (usually a number of "days" whatever that might mean) from time in purgatory. In the bad old days, you could buy indulgences (for yourself or for loved ones) for cash. In my memory, it was just a matter of saying a prayer (or a certain number of repetitions of a prayer) to gain a certain number of days for yourself or someone else.

I'm not sure why saying the prayers makes more sense than paying money if the indulgences are for someone else. (I can at least understand the argument that they could say that saying the prayer would make you a better person, but if that is just to be transferred to someone else's "account"--why not use money?)

 

[This Guy]

This brings to mind a bumper sticker I saw the other day.

"Jesus Paid For Our Sins"
"So let's get our money's worth!"

I nearly wrecked from laughing.

But, is it fair to allow the rich to get out of purgatory, while the poor are left there?

I suggest they offer coupons, and maybe "Half off" days or something. Senior discounts? Military discounts? Bulk pricing?

Priest: May I help you?
Parishioner: Yes, I'd like a case of Indulgences for Adultery please.
Priest: A CASE!?!
Parishioner: Yes, I have a busy weekend planned.

Guess I need to read up on this a bit. I am under the impression Indulgences were done away with because of abuses.