• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

DDWFTTW - Tests.

It takes ages to upload videos to Youtube so I keep them as short as possible.
Nice set of test videos ynot. Good work. Have you tried using a program to compress the videos more first? Youtube compresses them afterwards anyway, but that doesn't help you sending them. I have had some success loading mine into Windows Movie Maker (I'm using Win XP, but Vista will have something similar, and there's sure to be something for Linux too), which has various options for specifying the quality as you save. You could also put titles, dub music or voice over, etc., although
Or you could simply turn your sound off.
yep, that's the option I prefer most of the time (generally, I mean - I sometimes switch it on to hear the noise on yours!). A voice over could be interesting, but I think they're fine showing what they show, and the noise is what you'd hear if you were there watching what they show.
 
tsig, it just ain't that easy to have the right wind for testing. Going downstairs and turning on the treadmill to get a consistent air/ground speed difference is.

I put in my wind order at least a month again. So far the best is a wind that started the cart moving slowly along the ground from a standstill. Kinda hard to get decent test conditions up here with all the ice and snow too.

For thousands of years the wind has been used for transportation now you tell me that it isn't consistent enough. All of you cart fanciers say the treadmill and the wind are the same. I'm just asking you to prove it.
 
For thousands of years the wind has been used for transportation now you tell me that it isn't consistent enough. All of you cart fanciers say the treadmill and the wind are the same. I'm just asking you to prove it.

tsig, part of the problem of the outdoor test is that the speed of the wind is arguable, as is the speed of the cart. When I used to argue with spork about this on the Mythbusters forum one solution that many of us anti's suggested was that he use a treadmill. We all knew that it was a frame of reference equivalent of traveling at wind speed when the cart is maintaining belt speed. In fact much of our argument was said with some sort of nasty tone like: "if you think it'll work then why don't you build one?" Well he did, it worked, spork was right, period. The treadmill gives both a definite wind speed and an observable speed for the cart. A perfect model for this problem.
 
The TT/cart designs I’m using were only meant to be test models but they work well enough (for me) that I don’t have to build better models.

The cart models we built were intended as "test models" as well. They were good enough to convince us - and many others. But we still took a load of crap from you about how we weren't building your contraption and doing your tests for you. Perhaps now you get it.

The longer I have to wait for the right conditions to test my cart outside, the more respect I have for Jack Goodman. I missed my one good opportunity by about 15 minutes and about 30 degrees of wind direction.

No doubt! The guy is riding a bike, controlling the cart via R/C, and filming - while half blind. And he's not 19 years old. I think he did an outstanding job designing and building his cart, operating it, and getting the video - not to mention finding a day and a place with a level road directly downwind for a long enough stretch to produce the video he did. I know for a fact that it took a long time to find the right place and the right day.

The bad news is this... if nothing else we've learned that any outdoor video will be held up as a hoax or improper because it's not going directly downwind, it's going downhill, the wind isn't steady, the tell-tale is not placed well... while an indoor test will be dismissed as not using "real" wind.

I would love to see your outdoor test Mender - but please don't be surprised when it convinces no one but those of us that are already convinced.

You are the one making the claim not me. Why do you shift the burden of proof.

On the contrary. It is you making the claim that inertial frames are not equivalent. That is a bold claim indeed since it's been known for several hundred years that they are. Your claim that a device can distinguish between a tailwind on a road vs. a treadmill moving beneath it would be worthy of a Nobel prize if you could prove it. So I strongly maintain that burden of proof is entirely on you.

Could it be that your cart doesn't work in the wind?

No - it couldn't. You've seen it on video, and you can see it in person.


For thousands of years the wind has been used for transportation now you tell me that it isn't consistent enough.

WRONG - it's the sceptics that are saying the wind outdoors is not consistent enough. How many thousands of posts from sceptics would you need to see to understand this.

All of you cart fanciers say the treadmill and the wind are the same. I'm just asking you to prove it.

It's been proven by Galileo, Newton, and Einstein. I need not add to their body of work.
 
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For thousands of years the wind has been used for transportation now you tell me that it isn't consistent enough. All of you cart fanciers say the treadmill and the wind are the same. I'm just asking you to prove it.

For 500 years physicists have been saying that inertial frames are equivalent, and so the treadmill and wind are the same. Now you tell us that isn't true? I'm just asking you to prove it.
 
spork there are some people who no matter what will not believe this is possible. You can show them with ice boats real world examples of VMG greater than the wind, show how a cart could be made with two ice boats that would power a DDWFTTW cart, and they will still claim over unity for your particular design. Congrats by the way on the last youtube video. I was amazed at how fast the cart went from being pulled back by the treadmill to pulling forward when you picked it up and dropped it.
 
Meanwhile . . . back in the workshop - I’ve built a circular wind tunnel to test if DDWFTTW is possible in a “real” wind. Unfortrunately the cart travels so fast it’s not easy to video to see what’s going on. On a TT or TM the observed speed of the cart is the speed of the cart above wind speed. In “real” wind however it’s the speed of the cart above wind speed plus the speed of the wind (quite fast). So at this stage I am only able to provide photos of the results . . .

Pic 1 is the cart going slower than wind and the ribbon is angled in the direction of the wind (right to left on the “back” side as indicated by the arrow).

slower.jpg



Pic 2 is the cart going faster than the wind and the ribbon is angled in the opposite direction to the wind. The cart is therefore going faster than the wind and in to a headwind.

faster.jpg


I’m rebuilding the wind tunnel with the wheel travelling around the outer edge of the tunnel in the hope that the cart will travel faster than the wind at a slower speed so I can video it. Will post the video if it works.
 
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Meanwhile . . . back in the workshop - I’ve built a circular wind tunnel to test if DDWFTTW is possible in a “real” wind. Unfortrunately the cart travels so fast it’s not easy to video to see what’s going on. On a TT or TM the observed speed of the cart is the speed of the cart above wind speed. In “real” wind however it’s the speed of the cart above wind speed plus the speed of the wind (quite fast). So at this stage I am only able to provide photos of the results . . .

Interesting. How are you creating the wind?
 
Interesting. How are you creating the wind?
The constant wind is being created by a large impeller at the bottom of the circular tunnel. I will provide photos of all the working pieces when I’ve finished the new design.
 
Ynot, I am well impressed with your have-a-go attitude, and would love to know more about how you've made your circular windtunnel. It looks a bit heath-robinson, but there's a place for that kind of engineering. I imagine that this method is quite unique in the history of DDWFTTW. The moving turntable in still air isn't, but making a windtunnel of 'infinite' length to test the cart in "real wind" ;) may be. Of course, detractors might say that it's not a real wind anyway, it's an artificial cyclone or something, and rant incoherently about friction and centrifugal force, but making a cart beat the tailwind in such a circular windtunnel is a good demonstration, combining the aspects of energy input to the air instead of the surface with easily demonstrated steady state. A knowing nod should go to the treadmill testers, who know that these aspects are not relevant to their results with a suitable understanding of mechanics, but for those with less education in the subject, the energy input at the belt, "still" air, and the need to prod the cart with a spork, tie or hold it back, or put it on a slope were recurring objections.

Something like this idea had occurred to me - I wondered about a circular pipe for my pipe-racer - but I didn't think of a suitable way to drive the air or other fluid round the pipe or trough without getting in the way of the cart. Another method I wondered about was to use a water-cart sunk in the bottom half of a circular trough, with paddles above moving the water round. That would work with air, too, and I imagine that your design must be something similar with the driven air below the turntable. I look forward to seeing more about it.

I suppose you have thought of this, but you might find that the air is directed even better by constructing upper and inner walls for the cart, although you'd have to leave a slot for the tether arm. The outer wall could be continued into a lid {ETA: some of this would need to be removable and preferably transparent}, integral with a partial inner wall coming down not quite as far as the arm. Maybe that's quite unnecessary though, and you seem to have had success with it already.
 
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Looked thread for 24 hours. Not much better at RDF....

I actually believe that it is more moderating on RDF compared to here in general.
 
I can hardly blame the other guys for not wanting the kind of garbage that was being spouted at the last; that was supposedly a scientific arguement.
 
That was a shameful display. That the shame was reflected on JREF makes it worse.

Next time you visit another village, you should take some time to learn the local customs and rules before continuing your private party in their town square.

This discussion is way off topic for this thread and forum. If you want to continue it, I would suggest asking a moderator to move it to the community forum with a suitable title and introduction.
 
I think that discussing ddwfttw's effects on forums and moderators is on topic. It is remarkable that such a little physics experiment can generate such vehemence, rhetoric and passion, that discussion in forums such as this can overload the capacity of moderators so quickly.

Was it the same for Galileo and Newton in their time? Such ideas meeting stubborn resistance, debate being stifled by political imperative?
 
Was it the same for Galileo and Newton in their time? Such ideas meeting stubborn resistance, debate being stifled by political imperative?

From wikipedia:

"Galileo was eventually forced to recant his heliocentrism and spent the last years of his life under house arrest on orders of the Roman Inquisition."

It was one of the most shameful events in scientific history (in my opinion).
 
That was a shameful display. That the shame was reflected on JREF makes it worse.

If the management of JREF is ashamed for having put one of the most active threads under moderated status, that is their shame to bear. If they are not, then no shame was reflected on JREF.
 

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