10 story hole in WTC 7 - Part II

[dtugg]

Hey Chris, you said Daniel Nigro is not a liar. Explain how WTC7 was a controlled demolition then. Answer or admit you can't.

(I expect either no answer or crazy handwaving)

 

[Christopher7]

Hey Chris, you said Daniel Nigro is not a liar. Explain how WTC7 was a controlled demolition then.

He is entitled to his opinion. I respectfully disagree.

 

[DavidJames]

He is entitled to his opinion. I respectfully disagree.

Okay Nigro was the Fire Chief of the FDNY, who was actually there on site during the event. Chief Nigro, an experience firefighter, on the scene, in person, with all those years of experience.

Please explain why your opinion should be given even one second of consideration and why Chief Nigro's should be ignored. I suggest including your qualifications used to support your opinion be included as part of your response.

 

[twinstead]

Okay Nigro was the Fire Chief of the FDNY, who was actually there on site during the event. Chief Nigro, an experience firefighter, on the scene, in person, with all those years of experience.

Please explain why your opinion should be given even one second of consideration and why Chief Nigro's should be ignored. I suggest including your qualifications used to support your opinion be included as part of your response.

This is very important. Chris, WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE YOU OVER NIGRO?

 

[Christopher7]

Okay Nigro was the Fire Chief of the FDNY, who was actually there on site during the event. Chief Nigro, an experience firefighter, on the scene, in person, with all those years of experience.

Please explain why your opinion should be given even one second of consideration and why Chief Nigro's should be ignored. I suggest including your qualifications used to support your opinion be included as part of your response.

You shouldn't accept anyone's opinion. You should look at the evidence and decide for yourself.

 

[dtugg]

You don't have any evidence.

 

[DavidJames]

You shouldn't accept anyone's opinion. You should look at the evidence and decide for yourself.

Should you be in the unfortunate position of having severe chest pains, sharp pains in your head, internal bleeding, blood in your urine or stool, I'll be interested in hearing how you determine what to do.

Me? If the Fire Chief of the FDNY tells me a building will collapse, I'll take his opinion over someone who shows clear signs of either intellectual immaturity or mental instability.

 

[Christopher7]

You don't have any evidence.

That is just typical JREF blanket denial. You refuse to accept anything that refutes the official Conspiracy Therory.

The videos of the implosion of WTC 7 are evidence of CD.
For someone to say "I don't know." would be a legitimate answer but anyone who says "It doesn't look like a CD." is someone in deep denial.

The fact that WTC 7 fell at free fall for 105 feet is proof of CD. This could not happen in a progressive collapse. The NIST computer simulation does not do this. It is therefore, invalid.

The molten metal and the corroded beam are evidence of thermite. There is no other known explanation for their existence and no other reason for thermie other than CD.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

You refuse to accept anything that refutes the official Conspiracy Therory.

I'll accept an alternative theory when the basis behind the claims stop being unbearably stupid and finally contains some substance which explains the circumstances better than the general theory. I gave AE911truth the opportunity to convince me, since hell, they were architects, licensed ones beyond my bachelor's degree education and many more years of experience. The reason I consider them and yourself complete incompetents is because AE911truth and yourself present completely ignorant claims in the design field, most material of which is learned prior to obtaining your professional license.

The videos of the implosion of WTC 7 are evidence of CD.

I might agree with this if the collapse weren't so silent compared to all of those other controlled demolitions. But that doesn't touch on the root issue. As designer, all the video compels me to ask is where the initiating failure took place, and what the circumstances would have played between the design, and damage it sustained. It is not itself "evidence," and anyone who's gullible enough to determine something based entirely on spurious resemblance doesn't have a place in discussing this matter. You have proven yourself time, and time again you're ignorant and have zero interest in studying these structures before you scream out your claims.

For someone to say "I don't know." would be a legitimate answer but anyone who says "It doesn't look like a CD." is someone in deep denial.

A competent individual working in design would approach the video by understanding the circumstances leading up to the time of the collapse, and then analyze the structure in as many aspects as possible to determine if the knowns were responsible. Further more, how failures propagate is determined by the structural framing system and various other factors relating to the design. You of course prefer not to take that into consideration, something further to realize when arguing a point with you.

The molten metal and the corroded beam are evidence of thermite.

Corrosion is evidence of thermite? Or should I say -- "thermie"?
Molten metal? Wait I thought you were arguing molten steel.

There is no other known explanation for their existence and no other reason for thermie other than CD.

Thermite is not conventionally used in controlled demolition, this must have been mentioned to you countless times in your psuedo-career as a 911truther. Another problem you refuse to acknowledge concerning your molten steel -- er I mean metal -- argument deals with thermite's rapid discharge which will not sustain sufficient temperatures to maintain molten steel for months at a time. Even more confusing than that... I have no clue where you pulled corrosion out of your hiney as only being possible if thermite was used... clearly you've lived in a cave if you've never seen rust before, which itself is a form of corrosion.

 

[lapman]

That is just typical JREF blanket denial. You refuse to accept anything that refutes the official Conspiracy Therory.

The molten metal and the corroded beam are evidence of thermite. There is no other known explanation for their existence and no other reason for thermie other than CD.

Then you should have no problem providing us with plenty of non-9/11 related examples of corrosion and molten metal that stayed like that for weeks caused by thermite. Ready...go.

 

[Christopher7]

I might agree with this if the collapse weren't so silent compared to all of those other controlled demolitions. etc. etc.

Nice tap dance.

"anyone who says "It doesn't look like a CD." is someone in deep denial."

Does it LOOK like a CD?

Corrosion is evidence of thermite? Or should I say -- "thermie"?
Molten metal? Wait I thought you were arguing molten steel.

Non answer. The beam corrosion FEMA said should be further investigated but NIST did not mention.The only known possibility for this phenomenon is thermite. Molten iron is the byproduct of thermite. There is no other known explanation for the molten metal found under all three buildings.

Thermite is not conventionally used in controlled demolition.

So what?

Another problem you refuse to acknowledge concerning your molten steel -- er I mean metal -- argument deals with thermite's rapid discharge which will not sustain sufficient temperatures to maintain molten steel for months at a time.

Thermite burns at 4500 degrees F. The molten metal did in fact stay molten for months. Thermite is the only possible explanation for the metal melting in the first place and its still being molten months later. There is no other explanation.
Can you think of one?

Even more confusing than that... I have no clue where you pulled corrosion out of your hiney as only being possible if thermite was used... clearly you've lived in a cave if you've never seen rust before, which itself is a form of corrosion.

Please, you know I'm talking about the hi temperature corrosion mentioned in the FEMA C report. This is just a JREF smartass reply.

 

[Christopher7]

Then you should have no problem providing us with plenty of non-9/11 related examples of corrosion and molten metal that stayed like that for weeks caused by thermite. Ready...go.

Rhetorical dodge. As you well know, there are no other examples of this occurring. That is why FEMA said "A detailed study into the mechanism of this phenomenon is needed . . ."
NIST ignored this.
Thermite is one explanation.
There are no other known explanations.
Your devout denial wont even let you acknowledge this fact.

 

[Dave Rogers]

The molten metal did in fact stay molten for months. Thermite is the only possible explanation for the metal melting in the first place and its still being molten months later.

Please explain, in detail, how a thermite reaction can maintain high temperatures for months. You'll be the first.

Dave

 

[GlennB]

The beam corrosion FEMA said should be further investigated but NIST did not mention.The only known possibility for this phenomenon is thermite. Molten iron is the byproduct of thermite. There is no other known explanation for the molten metal found under all three buildings.

I can't help but notice that you leap from "corrosion" to "molten iron" to "molten metal" in the space of 4 sentences, blurring the dramatic difference between these 3 phenomena and (it seems) attempting to make them appear synonymous. They aren't.

This is either very imprecise thinking on your part, or a deliberate attempt to deceive. Which is it?

 

[Sunstealer]

Thermite burns at 4500 degrees F. The molten metal did in fact stay molten for months. Thermite is the only possible explanation for the metal melting in the first place and its still being molten months later.

Please show your thermodynamic calculations to back up this statement.

If you cannot do this then you have no proof and therefore I demand that you retract this statement and acknowledge that you cannot back that statement up.

This should be fun - Am I going to see moved goal posts and massive hand-waving or just a simple dismissal or ignoring of the question? (I understand what is actually required to produce this calculation).

It's not overly difficult to do, however, it will mean that C7 will have to do some work and work out how much thermite there was in the first place and this is something no truther has been able to do. I'm willing to bet that it will never be done but lets see if they can make a start - see exercise(s) below.

There is no other explanation.
Can you think of one?

Yep. Large fire in building. Building collapses. Fires insulated under the rubble pile continues to burn combustible material in a low oxygen environment. It's akin to an underground coal fire.

The elevated steel temperatures will cause the steel to "burn", that is oxidise heavily and therefore erode. (note I use the term erode in the metallurgical sense).

Thermite produces lots of heat in the form of molten iron (Fe) and it does this very quickly. That heat is transferred to whatever you want it to cut. So the molten Iron is already cooling as it melts the steel.


Exercise for C7.

How much molten Iron will 1kg of thermite produce? (Assume Fe2O3 + 2Al -> 2Fe + Al2O3 + Heat) - atomic weights can be found from wiki.

Massive Hint

The next questions will be as below, but they are a little more complicated and can be solved with different methods. There's no point in continuing if C7 can't do the first one.

How much Iron (use iron instead of steel due to ease of obtaining data) will this molten Iron from thermite be able to melt assuming that the molten Iron is at a temperature of 2500°C and the unmelted Iron is at a temperature of 25°C. (assume 100% of the heat transferred is via conduction for ease of calculation).

How long will it take 1kg of Iron (Pure Fe) to cool from 1500°C to room temperature assuming room temperature is 25°C? (assume a cube shape).

These calculations will be invaluable to you with regard to your opinion that thermite was the cause of WTC collapse and rubble hot spots.

 

[Christopher7]

Please explain, in detail, how a thermite reaction can maintain high temperatures for months. You'll be the first.Dave

A well insulated large amount of molten metal at 4500 degrees F would take a while to cool down. That is therefore, the most likely possibility. Please explain what else could keep metal molten for months.

 

[phunk]

A well insulated large amount of molten metal at 4500 degrees F would take a while to cool down. That is therefore, the most likely possibility. Please explain what else could keep metal molten for months.

The only thing that can keep metal molten that long is a continuous fire. Thermite will burn itself out in a matter of seconds.

 

[funk de fino]

No, it was a logical deduction. Read the whole document. He was at the SW corner. He was describing what was happening at the SW corner. He could not see the NE corner.

Its an assumtion whether you like it or not. Please provide proof or retract the claim. You could contact him.

Please remember the vents to the roof also.

Non answer. The beam corrosion FEMA said should be further investigated but NIST did not mention.The only known possibility for this phenomenon is thermite. Molten iron is the byproduct of thermite. There is no other known explanation for the molten metal found under all three buildings.

false, NISST mention the other beam that was the same from the towers

 

[DGM]

That is just typical JREF blanket denial. You refuse to accept anything that refutes the official Conspiracy Therory.

The videos of the implosion of WTC 7 are evidence of CD.
For someone to say "I don't know." would be a legitimate answer but anyone who says "It doesn't look like a CD." is someone in deep denial.

The fact that WTC 7 fell at free fall for 105 feet is proof of CD. This could not happen in a progressive collapse. The NIST computer simulation does not do this. It is therefore, invalid.

The molten metal and the corroded beam are evidence of thermite. There is no other known explanation for their existence and no other reason for thermie other than CD.

Wrong!

The decomposing gypsum wall board combined with water and heat will do the same thing. Sorry, but even ancient blacksmiths knew this. Why don't you try to learn about the subject before you spout your non-sense?

PS I teach blacksmith art. I can melt (significantly soften) iron well below 1100c. Woo.... Woo black magic.

 

[Christopher7]

The only thing that can keep metal molten that long is a continuous fire. Thermite will burn itself out in a matter of seconds.

Open or smoldering carbon based fires don't burn hot enough to melt steel in the first place.

The only known explanation for the molten metal is thermite.

Yes, the thermite burned itself out in a few seconds but thermite burns at 4500[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F. Steel melts at 2700-2800[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F. That leaves 700[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F of cooling before the molten steel/iron starts to solidify. The molten metal ignited the carbon fuel* around it creating more heat which slowed the cooling of the molten metal.

*office contents - [fuel tanks at west end of building / hot spot at east end]



We agree that the smoldering carbon fuel kept the molten metal molten but you have no explanation for what melted the steel.