The Phoenix Lights... We Are Not Alone

chuck4842 said:
You don't find it a bit odd the association of the word "Snowbird" related to two events on the same night a ufo was reported concerning both events?
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You are stretching things a bit. The only association five tutor aircraft on a training flight to Tuscon to the word "snowbird" is that they are flying the same aircraft used by the "snowbirds". The "snowbirds" were not involved.
 
I aint stretching nothing. The nickname of the CAF tutors is snowbird, and the official statement from Jones and the flares was "operation Snowbird". My 2 references is your site and wiki. I don't have any better than that. Have you looked up Tutor on wiki? Check out the nickname.
 
chuck4842 said:
I aint stretching nothing. The nickname of the CAF tutors is snowbird, and the official statement from Jones and the flares was "operation Snowbird". .
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No, the tutors are called just that "Tutors". Look it up. They are designated as the CT-114 aka "Tutor". The "snowbirds" is the name of the demonstration team that flies the Tutor. In the same way you can not call the F-18 a "blue angel" or an F-16 a "thunderbird". Both of those aircraft are called a "Hornet" and a "Falcon". I would think somebody who has been to many air shows, would know the difference.
 
chuck4842 said:
This is the wiki link describing the snowbird "V-formation" craft which you suspect as the 1st event
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Again, you are completely misrepresenting what the "snowbirds" are. I have NEVER stated the "snowbird" demonstration team was responsible for the 8PM event....And we resume the "death spiral" of what the official designation of a CT-114 is. Attend some more air shows.
 
Astrophotographer said:
No, the tutors are called just that "Tutors". Look it up. They are designated as the CT-114 aka "Tutor". The "snowbirds" is the name of the demonstration team that flies the Tutor. In the same way you can not call the F-18 a "blue angel" or an F-16 a "thunderbird". Both of those aircraft are called a "Hornet" and a "Falcon". I would think somebody who has been to many air shows, would know the difference.
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What else could a tutor do. They are ALL airshow planes. I bet I could shoot one down with a stickmade slingshot. Therefor if appearing in formation they are Snowbirds dude. You don't see the irony? 2 ufo's , 1 a formation of tutors also known as "The Snowbirds" during airshows and not much else to offer any military value. The 2nd ufo were flares dropped during "Operation Snowbird"
 
Astrophotographer said:
I have stated what I know based on the facts and information we have available. Again, I am not sure what you are talking about:

1) A formation of five tutor aircraft from Canada (which is my theory based on the readers digest article) on a training flight to Tuscon from Nellis does not constitute an "exercise" of any significant magnitude. It is an overflight and they happen every day. The USAF would have nothing to do with the flight other than they used the US air bases for their start and end points. The rest would be under the jurisdication of the FAA and the enroute ATC.

2) The flare drops did not happen over Phoenix and were part of an exercise 30-60 miles south-southwest of Phoenix over the Barry Goldwater test range, which is a military operating area designed specifically for this kind of stuff. They happen on a regular basis there.

I am not sure how you get the idea either of these events are of some significant magnitude that the USAF would never do this. Only if it involved some super secret highly sophisticated mile-wide aircraft with stealth technology would I agree with you on this point. However, I have never stated this was the case.
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Is this you ? Maybe I'm quoting the wrong guy,
 
chuck4842 said:
What else could a tutor do. They are ALL airshow planes. I bet I could shoot one down with a stickmade slingshot. Therefor if appearing in formation they are Snowbirds dude. You don't see the irony? 2 ufo's , 1 a formation of tutors also known as "The Snowbirds" during airshows and not much else to offer any military value. The 2nd ufo were flares dropped during "Operation Snowbird"
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No, they were a high performance training aircraft. Specifically designed for a training mission. One of the things military pilots have to learn is formation flying.

According to Wikipedia, the ten CF114's used by the aerobatic team were modified.

So: it would be fairly common for Tutors to fly in formation. Not all the Tutors were airshow airplanes.

And just think how ironic it would be if the visiting Canadian pilots had dropped Anne Murray on Surprise, AZ during their mission.

Anne Murray had a hit song called "Snowbird", and Surprise, AZ has a sign on the outskirts of town saying "Welcome, Snowbirds".

That would definitely make it a UFO.
 
chuck4842 said:
What else could a tutor do. They are ALL airshow planes.
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How do you figure? Did you not read the link? Based on what it stated, they say they bought 190 of the aircraft. Last time I checked, the snowbirds did NOT have 190 planes at the airshows and their are not 190 snowbird pilots. Like I said, you are really stretching it to make some sort of connection.

I am getting tired of repeating myself. I thought you might be interested in learning something but it now appears you are just trying to make some absurd links. Maybe you should try Nostradamus prophecies. There you can link just about anything to what he wrote. You would be a natural.
 
Astrophotographer said:
How do you figure? Did you not read the link? Based on what it stated, they say they bought 190 of the aircraft. Last time I checked, the snowbirds did NOT have 190 planes at the airshows and their are not 190 snowbird pilots. Like I said, you are really stretching it to make some sort of connection.

I am getting tired of repeating myself. I thought you might be interested in learning something but it now appears you are just trying to make some absurd links. Maybe you should try Nostradamus prophecies. There you can link just about anything to what he wrote. You would be a natural.
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Fine, they may or may not have been snowbirds, they are planes the snowbirds use and snowbird is the nickname wiki lists, not me. I've learned alot from your website , it's full of disinformation without many references. Maybe you should apply for a job with the National Enquirer, where insults and namecalling is the norm.
 
TjW said:
No, they were a high performance training aircraft. Specifically designed for a training mission. One of the things military pilots have to learn is formation flying.

According to Wikipedia, the ten CF114's used by the aerobatic team were modified.

So: it would be fairly common for Tutors to fly in formation. Not all the Tutors were airshow airplanes.

And just think how ironic it would be if the visiting Canadian pilots had dropped Anne Murray on Surprise, AZ during their mission.

Anne Murray had a hit song called "Snowbird", and Surprise, AZ has a sign on the outskirts of town saying "Welcome, Snowbirds".

That would definitely make it a UFO.
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If you put it that way it does dumb it down a bit. But at least you acknowledge the coincidence. thanks.
 
chuck4842 said:
I've learned alot from your website , it's full of disinformation without many references.
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Disinformation implies the information is false (and it is often a buzzword used by UFO proponents). So far, you have found one item that I made an error on to the best of my knowledge and I immediately corrected it. I find one error out of many paragraphs not really "full of" but that is just me. As for the lack of references, I am not sure how you can state that. Everything I quote, I give a reference for. Some of the links are dead and I can't do anything about it. I do have the original works though in my files. I am sorry it does not spoon feed you with every bit of information you desire but it seems you came in here with your mind made up already. BTW, are you ever going to answer my question? Do you admit the 10 PM events are videos of flares or are you still suggesting they are something else?
 
chuck4842 said:
Fine, they may or may not have been snowbirds, they are planes the snowbirds use and snowbird is the nickname wiki lists, not me. I've learned alot from your website , it's full of disinformation without many references. Maybe you should apply for a job with the National Enquirer, where insults and namecalling is the norm.
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:i:

Where does wiki say that "Snowbird" is a nickname for the Tutor? I only see that it is nicknamed the "Tute".
 
Astrophotographer said:
Disinformation implies the information is false (and it is often a buzzword used by UFO proponents). So far, you have found one item that I made an error on to the best of my knowledge and I immediately corrected it. I find one error out of many paragraphs not really "full of" but that is just me. As for the lack of references, I am not sure how you can state that. Everything I quote, I give a reference for. Some of the links are dead and I can't do anything about it. I do have the original works though in my files. I am sorry it does not spoon feed you with every bit of information you desire but it seems you came in here with your mind made up already. BTW, are you ever going to answer my question? Do you admit the 10 PM events are videos of flares or are you still suggesting they are something else?
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I admit they may be flares, I deny they were dropped by more than one craft,equipped with the capabilities of the time, which you state on your site. BTW are you ever going to answer my question , where's the reproduced event that Dilettoso witnessed and still claimed ufos. I know hes not perfect but your attack is fabricated without proof. The tape from Macabee was fabricated, why should I trust anything you have to say? "I'm sure I read it somewhere". Well I read somewhere something that I have no proof of so just believe me and get on with the debate.
 
The tutors have no armament and have two uses , 1- airshows, 2- training. So I guess the RCAF was training pilots on how to fly over major american cities and avoid radar, since according to Astro they weren't Snowbirds the 1st use.
 
chuck4842 said:
BTW are you ever going to answer my question , where's the reproduced event that Dilettoso witnessed and still claimed ufos.
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I thought this has been addressed. I corrected my website. If conceded that I thought the January 14, 1998 event had been preannounced, I was incorrect. However, Diletosso and Village labs did claim the January 14, 1998 events were just like the March 13, 1997 event.

http://www.ufologie.net/htm/phoewit1.htm

By comparing the overlapping of the individual videos (and their differing perspectives), we can conclusively demonstrate that the mysterious 'Phoenix Lights' are, in fact, back and the favored locations for their displays are the same as for March 10 through 14, 1997, that is, both sides of the Estrella Mountains and the Gila River and Rainbow Valley and far from the Barry Goldwater gunnery range more than forty miles away, the site of occasional flare drops and other military exercises.

According to this website, Tom King states the local media immediately identified it as coming from the Michigan ANG on January 14, 1998:

http://www.artgomperz.com/a1998/jan/ariz.html

While the media is calling for video footage from 1/14/98 the investigators
are taking their time with the analysis work before they release them to the local news to do sloppy work like they did on 1/14/98 nightly news.

So, as I stated, it had not been preannounced but it seems the media rapidly identified the source that same evening and announced it.
 
Astrophotographer said:
Disinformation implies the information is false (and it is often a buzzword used by UFO proponents). So far, you have found one item that I made an error on to the best of my knowledge and I immediately corrected it. I find one error out of many paragraphs not really "full of" but that is just me. As for the lack of references, I am not sure how you can state that. Everything I quote, I give a reference for. Some of the links are dead and I can't do anything about it. I do have the original works though in my files. I am sorry it does not spoon feed you with every bit of information you desire but it seems you came in here with your mind made up already. BTW, are you ever going to answer my question? Do you admit the 10 PM events are videos of flares or are you still suggesting they are something else?
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Which one error are you referring? The Macabee report doesn't contain the video you claim? The error Dilettoso saw it? The AF claim the sighting a result of multiple planes dropping flares? The non-investigation of the military? Or the investigation of the military. The flares the af official statement were LUU but now ....I forget. And may have been dispensed with todays technology. The eyewitnesses aren't credible, just mistaken, these AF exercises happen all the time, the AF doesn't have to report to anybody about where they're headed because it's none of our business, shall I continue? I got more
 
chuck4842 said:
So I guess the RCAF was training pilots on how to fly over major american cities and avoid radar, since according to Astro they weren't Snowbirds the 1st use.
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1. There is no concrete evidence that they avoided radar. Only stories told weeks later and may have been concerning the 10PM event, which would not show up on radar. We have no radar data because UFOlogists chose not to obtain it. Therefore, the claim they were not on radar is not confirmed in any way. BTW, only one aircraft would need to have it's transponder active as long as the aircraft stated in a formation.

2. Training exercises take on many different forms. Some of them just involve flying time. I keep trying to emphasize is the planes were simply flying from Nellis AFB to Tuscon for proficiency. You exaggerate what I have stated they were doing.
 
the word Snowbird has no connection at all with the two events? The Dr still lives there and hasn't come up with another video similar, the AF can't even slightly remotely reenact the original after ten years. ATC do not have records of the Tutors scheduled flight... I got a million reasons why you are a disinformant.
 
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