Flight 77: the Passenger Manifest

[240-185]

I have some question about these papers.

I'm praticing debunking on a new French debunking site which has opened this morning (or this night, for fellow americans ) (although very superficial in their investigations), and some twoofers keep asking for the passenger manifest. When I provide these, these morons ignore the proof in order to "doubt" and they almost accuse me to provide manipulated information.

Although flight77.info explains how they were obtained, I have some questions.

Does this manifest come from American Airlines?

If not, may I have a brief synopsis about how Mr. Terry McDermott obtained these?

(PS: this thread is intended to be pfffffft and TLB-free)

 

[MikeW]

McDermott got the documents from the FBI. Read more about them on this page.

I'd be careful about referring to them as full manifests, because they don't include all the passengers (for the UAL flights, anyway - see the link). If you're encountering people who say "the hijackers weren't on the manifests" then point them to the Flight 11 list, as published by the Boston Globe a couple of days after the attacks:

(hotlinked from my own page)

If they accept this as genuine, then they must drop the "not on the manifest" claim for at least one of the flights (and then the question arises, why wouldn't they be on all of them) If they claim it's faked, then they'll continue to do that about everything. Ignore them.

You could also try them with the Moussaoui manifests, I guess. Something else they'll claim as faked, but hey, that's their problem.

 

[T.A.M.]

The entire claim of them not being on the manifests, is based on the CNN published list of "Victims" in which the hijackers (not VICTIMS) names were not included.

All complaints and theories stem from this one article/webpage/list.

TAM

 

[A-Train]

If you're encountering people who say "the hijackers weren't on the manifests" then point them to the Flight 11 list, as published by the Boston Globe a couple of days after the attacks:

There is no question the names of the official story's alleged hijackers appear on the flight manifests. The real questions are these:

1. Were the men sitting in the seats assigned to the alleged hijackers really who they are claimed to be by the official story, or were they agents who simply assumed the identities of Arab patsies before boarding the planes?

2. Even if it can be established that a particular individual was indeed sitting in the seat assigned to his name, can it be shown that he participated in the hijacking?

Until defenders of the official story can demonstrate that, on FL11, for example, not only was it was really the Alshehri brothers, Atta, Suqami, etc., who were sitting in those seats, but that these were the men who carried out the hijacking, the official story will remain an unproven theory. As such we are then entitled to speculate that, while some of the official Arab "hijackers" may have indeed been onboard the planes, the real hijackings were carried out by another group altogether, with the Arabs playing only the role of scapegoats.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider that each flight may have had a mix of the following on its manifests and aboard the plane:

A.) Phony Arabs-- real hijackers who had assumed the identities of Arab patsies via identity theft. These men may have the dark-skinned appearance of Arabs, and their presence designed to give the hijacking the appearance of an Arab operation.

B.) Professional hijackers-- also real hijackers who may have boarded the planes under their real names, and have never been suspected as having been hijackers by the authorities or even the truth movement. These men may have had the appearance of ordinary business travelers, but were actually highly skilled and trained commandos who carried out the actual commandeering of the cockpits and shootings of the pilots.

C.) Arab patsies-- these tragic individuals manipulated onto the planes in the classic style, similar to how Lee Harvey Oswald found his way into the Texas Book Depository on Nov. 22, 1963. Their only role was to serve as patsies, so that it would appear they carried out the hijackings-- and perhaps they were executed on the spot by the real hijackers as well.

Such a mix is suggested by the phone call made by Betty Ong from AAL11. She reported the hijackers coming from seats 2A, 2B, 9A, 9B, and an "injured passenger" in seat 10B. As we know, the Alshehri brothers (seats 2A and 2B) turned up alive and well in the Middle East, indicating that someone else was occupying "their" seats on the planes. In seat 10B sat the hapless Satam Suqami, whose only role was to have his brains blown out by the real hijackers, and the hijacking blamed on him after his death.

 

[T.A.M.]

you forgot to include in your list of possibilities,

(D) Al-Qaeda Arab hijackers.

TAM

 

[Bell]

Re: A-Train:

Yes, why not. The whole conspiracy plan was not complicated enough allready.

 

[The Big Dog]

Say, A-Train, ya calling Osama a liar?

"And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them."

......

"In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children."

Shall I go on?

 

[dtugg]

A-Train is the guy that says Israeli (of course it's teh jooos) commandos hijacked the plane, set the autopilot to crash into their targets, and then parachuted out, right?

 

[funk de fino]

A-Train is the guy that says Israeli (of course it's teh jooos) commandos hijacked the plane, set the autopilot to crash into their targets, and then parachuted out, right?

Out of the nose wheel bay door no less!

he is a bigot

 

[Bell]

A-Train is the guy that says Israeli (of course it's teh jooos) commandos hijacked the plane, set the autopilot to crash into their targets, and then parachuted out, right?

Out of the nose wheel bay door no less!

 

[Heiwa]

I have some question about these papers.

I'm praticing debunking on a new French debunking site which has opened this morning (or this night, for fellow americans ) (although very superficial in their investigations), and some twoofers keep asking for the passenger manifest. When I provide these, these morons ignore the proof in order to "doubt" and they almost accuse me to provide manipulated information.

Although flight77.info explains how they were obtained, I have some questions.

Does this manifest come from American Airlines?

If not, may I have a brief synopsis about how Mr. Terry McDermott obtained these?

(PS: this thread is intended to be pfffffft and TLB-free)

Pls provide a link to this French site you try to debunk!

 

[HyJinX]

Pls provide a link to this French site you try to debunk!

Why...do you want to send some pizzas to them?

 

[MikeW]

As we know, the Alshehri brothers (seats 2A and 2B) turned up alive and well in the Middle East

Perhaps you should try applying the same standards of evidence to those kind of claims as you do to the "official story", rather than swallowing them wholesale and pretending they're established facts. Do you really think we won't notice?

 

[funk de fino]

Why...do you want to send some pizzas to them?

He just wants to spam them them with his junk papers.

 

[240-185]

Thanks, MikeW for your answer. I think I'll bookmark it.
In fact, twoofers ask for a Passenger Manifest for flight 77, so it would indicate them that a plane struck the Pentagon. But unfortunately, when I provide these to the twoofers, they aren't convinced. In fact, I think they *don't* want to debate, but to spread fantasies and lies.

Pls provide a link to this French site you try to debunk!

Hum, I have a dilemma...
Something says to me that I should provide the link so everybody could laugh at you, but my conscience says not.

 

[lapman]

Perhaps you should try applying the same standards of evidence to those kind of claims as you do to the "official story", rather than swallowing them wholesale and pretending they're established facts. Do you really think we won't notice?

We must not forget that to to twoofers like ATrain, anything that supports their fantasy is 100% correct no matter what, so the standard that they require of our evidence does not apply to theirs. So, if someone suggested that the brothers are alive, then they are without question. If DNA evidence was provided, even from an independent source, that proved that they died in the crash, it is automatically deemed fake, even if another twoofer confirmed the evidence was real.

 

[Bell]

Hum, I have a dilemma...
Something says to me that I should provide the link so everybody could laugh at you, but my conscience says not.

You could PM the link to the debunkers that are interested

 

[beachnut]

When I first saw the 911Truth dolts use the victim list to say the terrorist were not on the passengers manifests, I knew there were some real idiots on the loose spewing delusions.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Hum, I have a dilemma...
Something says to me that I should provide the link so everybody could laugh at you, but my conscience says not.

Don't take this as a personal criticism; rather, it's merely a statement of principle. But I don't think it's a good idea to hide an otherwise publicly available site or source of information. Truthers may find it anyway. Being open is normally the best idea, then you can't be accused of obstructionism.

Yes, I'm fully aware of the hurricane of lunacy that can infect a newly targeted site. I've seen it on non-9/11 boards and blogs where something completely tangental gets mentioned, and the dam gates burst. So I do cringe at knowing that posting such a link may result in an avalance of fantasy peddling. In spite of that, if the site owner wants a site public, then I don't see it as our place to hide that info.

Then again, this all is ultimately up to the site owner. In this specific case, I'll readily accept that person's/peoples' judgement.

 

[A-Train]

.... So, if someone suggested that the brothers are alive, then they are without question. If DNA evidence was provided, even from an independent source, that proved that they died in the crash, it is automatically deemed fake, even if another twoofer confirmed the evidence was real.

That's really not true. If an independent source confirmed that the brothers died in the crash, I would believe them-- although it would still need to be proved that they participated in the hijacking. I'm only starting my analysis from the known facts. It is irresponsible to simply assume that because a ticket was bought in someone's name that that person was therefore not only on the plane but a hijacker as well. The federal 9/11 investigators themselves admitted as much:

L.A. Times 9/21/2001:

"Investigators believe that some of the 19 suspected hijackers may have stolen the identities of law-abiding Middle Easterners, further complicating the probe.

Confusion over the identities of some of the terrorists is one reason authorities have delayed putting out the photographs of the hijackers, as they had planned to do last week, Justice Department spokeswoman Mindy Tucker said.

The Saudi citizens who were mistakenly linked to last week's tragedy are horrified, said a diplomat at the Saudi Embassy here.

"You should see the hate mail we are getting," said Gaafar Allagany, head of the embassy's information center. "We think this was part of the plan."

The six Saudis are:

* Abdulaziz Alomari, a name used by one of the suspected hijackers on American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane that crashed into the World Trade Center.

A man with the same name is an electrical engineer in Saudi Arabia. He lived in Denver, where he got his degree from the University of Colorado, from 1993 until last year.

"In 1995, his apartment was broken into in Denver and his passport and other official documents were stolen," Allagany said.

* Salem Alhamzi, a name used by one of the suspected hijackers on American Airlines Flight 77, the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.

A man with the same name works for the Saudi Royal Commission in the Saudi city of Yanbu.

* Saeed Alghamdi, a name used by one of the alleged hijackers on United Airlines Flight 93, the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.

A Saudi Arabian pilot, currently on a mission to Tunisia, has the same name.

* Ahmed Alnami, a name used by another suspected hijacker on Flight 93.

A 33-year-old Saudi Arabian pilot with the same name is alive in Riyadh.

* Wail Alshehri, a name used by one of the suspected hijackers on American Airlines Flight 11.

A man by the same name is a pilot whose father is a Saudi diplomat in Bombay. "I personally talked to both father and son today," Allagany said.

* Waleed M. Alshehri, a name used by another alleged hijacker on Flight 11, is the same name as the other son of the diplomat. Allagany said that man is living in Jidda.

"This is a respectable family. I know his sons, and they're both alive," he said."
http://web.archive.org/web/20010927.../news/nationworld/nation/la-092101probe.story

There were apparently several Wail and Waleed Alshehris surfacing still alive in the middle east after 9/11. Granted, it is conceivably possible that another set of Alshehri brothers were on the plane and carried out the hijacking. But the burden of proof that these men were the hijackers-- or even that they existed-- is on the defenders of the official story.