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Finally, the Palestinians got their independent state
- Thread starter Oliver
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No, then we spend a century or so debating compensation for confiscated lands, water rights, border security, management of the Temple Mount, right of return, guest workers, reparations, economic assistance, corruption, second-class status of Palestinians in Israel, failure to crack down on radicals, border disputes, etc...
Tin Foil Timothy
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The Palestinians won't get their independent state. Not in Palestine at any rate. Maybe if Saudi Arabia or Egyopt gives them a few square miles in the middle of a desert somwhere it might happen. but there's no way a Palestinian state will happen in Palestine. Israel will never let that happen. It suits Israel for the Palestinians to be 'stateless' - It can then call it's fighters terrorists.
If Palestine was a proper state then it's fighters would be a legitimate military and Israel couldn't use the terrorist label.
If Palestine was a proper state then it's fighters would be a legitimate military and Israel couldn't use the terrorist label.
MarkCorrigan
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Two incorrect assumptions in one. Well done.
Sometimes the only "peace" is the peace of the grave. I don't believe the neighborhood is big enough for both the Israelis and Palestinians and there will come a time when it will become obvious to Israel. The Palestinians already recognise that and endorse it.
Tin Foil Timothy
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Tin Foil Timothy
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Amazingly....... I agree with that.
It's already obvious to Israel. Israel isn't working towards a scenario where there's a two-state solution in Palestine.
I think many Palestinians would just like to live a peaceful life without being imprisoned, ghettoized, behind concrete walls, experiencing military checkpoints, and for those in Gaza... periodic slaughter
MarkCorrigan
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Ok, first incorrect assumption, that the only reason Israel calls the Palestinian fighters terrorists is because they are a stateless army. No. They call them terrorists because they use tactics that are meant to (and do) inspire terror in the target group, often aiming said attacks at civilians.
Second incorrect assumption, the moment the Palestinians get statehood (hypothetical assumption that they will) Israel can no longer charge them with being terrorists. Once again, no. Israel can charge them, legitimately, with being terrorists if they continue to use terror tactics. If it was FRANCE committing these acts against Israel I'm pretty damn sure they would be able to legitimately call the French terrorists.
Tin Foil Timothy
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Well Israel commits acts that inspire terror in it's target group of Palestinian Civilians. Israel commits acts of terror, but it's force, the IDF is an 'official' state military force. if the IDF was judged on acts alone, in ti's attacks against gaza then it would be easy to describe it as a terrorist force.
So no it's not incorrect assumptions. Some people in the group who are Palestinians are taking up armed response to the behavior of Israel. thye have as much right to do this as Israel has a right to take up an armed response against a force against itself.
If you remove political bias then both sides commits violence against civilians therefore both sides must be open to the charge of terrorism.
Just because the IDF is a state force with a uniform doesn't let it off the hook.
You know as well as I do, Oliver.
1). First of all, a week later, the Palestinians start a new war of mortars, GRAD rockets, etc., from the just-achieved old borders (or perhaps, more accurately, an old war from the new borders).
2). The continued education of the youth that no greater glory exists than to die for liberating Palestine, and that the newly-achieved state is merely a step towards Israel's total annihilation, as per the 1974 PLO "staged plan", the Hamas charter, etc.
3). Constant rearming, encouraged by Hizbuallah, Hamas, Iran, Syria, etc.
4). A wave of terrorism that will make the "second intifada" look like a joke.
5). Constant claims in the world media that it is all Israel's fault since "the occupation" somehow magically continues.
All this can be safely surmized, based on the 16-year-experience with the Oslo "peace" process and the 4-year experience with the ending of the occupation in Gaza.
What then? Who knows. Either the destruction of Israel by stages, as planned -- after which the world will simply accept the newly-formed "greater Palestine" as a fait accompli and forget within few months about the little genocide of the Jews that it caused. The "human rights activists" will either ignore the genocide or justify it.
Or else, perhaps unlikely, another Nakba, due to the same reason as the original one (to wit, the Arab desire to throw the Jews into the sea) -- after which the world will blame Israel once more for the next 60 years, and the Arab "brothers" of the Palestinians will keep the Palestinians in camps as "refugees" for another 60 years, in an attempt to try the whole thing once again. With the enthusiastic support of the "human right activists" of course.
(Resettle the refugees? Just like millions of other refugees were? Note that it makes little sense to call a third and, by now, fourth generation "refugees" just because their Arab "brothers" refuse to resettle them anywhere else but where they can destroy Israel? What! And give up the dream of throwing the Jews into the sea with them! Who are you, some kind of Zionist apologist or something?)
1). First of all, a week later, the Palestinians start a new war of mortars, GRAD rockets, etc., from the just-achieved old borders (or perhaps, more accurately, an old war from the new borders).
2). The continued education of the youth that no greater glory exists than to die for liberating Palestine, and that the newly-achieved state is merely a step towards Israel's total annihilation, as per the 1974 PLO "staged plan", the Hamas charter, etc.
3). Constant rearming, encouraged by Hizbuallah, Hamas, Iran, Syria, etc.
4). A wave of terrorism that will make the "second intifada" look like a joke.
5). Constant claims in the world media that it is all Israel's fault since "the occupation" somehow magically continues.
All this can be safely surmized, based on the 16-year-experience with the Oslo "peace" process and the 4-year experience with the ending of the occupation in Gaza.
What then? Who knows. Either the destruction of Israel by stages, as planned -- after which the world will simply accept the newly-formed "greater Palestine" as a fait accompli and forget within few months about the little genocide of the Jews that it caused. The "human rights activists" will either ignore the genocide or justify it.
Or else, perhaps unlikely, another Nakba, due to the same reason as the original one (to wit, the Arab desire to throw the Jews into the sea) -- after which the world will blame Israel once more for the next 60 years, and the Arab "brothers" of the Palestinians will keep the Palestinians in camps as "refugees" for another 60 years, in an attempt to try the whole thing once again. With the enthusiastic support of the "human right activists" of course.
(Resettle the refugees? Just like millions of other refugees were? Note that it makes little sense to call a third and, by now, fourth generation "refugees" just because their Arab "brothers" refuse to resettle them anywhere else but where they can destroy Israel? What! And give up the dream of throwing the Jews into the sea with them! Who are you, some kind of Zionist apologist or something?)
gumboot
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On 10 July 1985 French operatives of the DGSE blew up the Greenpeace ship Rainbow Warrior in a New Zealand harbour. This was, and still is, considered an act of terrorism.
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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Tin Foil Timothy,
I am confused.
First you state:
But shortly after you state:
These two statements are directly contradictory. Please explain.
I am confused.
First you state:
But shortly after you state:
These two statements are directly contradictory. Please explain.
It is typical in certain circles to make, at the same time, the two logically contradictory claims:
1). "Terrorism" is a completely subjective and meaningless label that should not be used -- "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" and all that.
2). Israel / the USA / the West are all using "state terrorism".
The bottom line of their argument seems to be that Hamas isn't a terror organization while Israel is, that Al-Quaeda isn't a terror organization while the USA is, etc.
1). "Terrorism" is a completely subjective and meaningless label that should not be used -- "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" and all that.
2). Israel / the USA / the West are all using "state terrorism".
The bottom line of their argument seems to be that Hamas isn't a terror organization while Israel is, that Al-Quaeda isn't a terror organization while the USA is, etc.
MarkCorrigan
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Precisely my point.
Sorry, what do syrian actions have to do with this? They are not typically considered "Palestine".
It's a real skill - it shows up often, not just a fluke.
Given that the first descendents of the "Palestinian Arabs" were originally from the ARABian Peninsula, the option of the Palestinians moving to Saudi ARABia would make sense. Considering Jordan represents nearly 80% of the original Palestinian Mandate and Jordan's population today is mostly Palestinian, Jordan would be another sensible option for resettlement.
Far more importantly, if the successive corrupt Palestinian governments would cease stealing the billions of dollars they receive in foreign aid and stop wasting millions to purchase rockets to then fire into Israel's civilian population, their chances of developing a normal society would increase dramatically. Maybe you can get in touch with Suha Arafat and ask her to return to the Palestinians the estimated $6 BILLION Yasser stole.
Tin Foil Timothy
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Old thread dragged up. Looks like we've got another TFT Stalker. Interesting