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DDWFTTW - Tests.

Whether the paddlewheel rolls up (Fig1) or down (Fig3) the cable or neither (Fig2) depends if the force of the water is above or bellow the point where the cable leaves the spool. In the original picture I drew the paddlewheel would therefore roll up the cable and not down as indicated. So will this design ever be able to travel DDSFTTS? (S = Stream)

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To avoid the thing just swinging round, you could double up the wires and have them wound round the ends, with the paddles in the middle. It still might swing from side to side, especially as it gets further from you, but your version (I guess you're just showing the principle) would be inherently unstable - any difference in force on one side will start it to turn, and it can't self-correct.
Yes, this is the way I would build it . . .

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Whether the paddlewheel rolls up (Fig1) or down (Fig3) the cable or neither (Fig2) depends if the force of the water is above or bellow the point where the cable leaves the spool. In the original picture I drew the paddlewheel would therefore roll up the cable and not down as indicated. So will this design ever be able to travel DDSFTTS? (S = Stream)

ratios.bmp
My intuition tells me that it's harder to get this to roll upstream than you think, although I can't construct a clear argument based on the forces as suggested by your drawing. It could be that this is because they are correct in perfect conditions, and my intuition is drawing on the peculiarities of real water-air-floating-object interactions. In Fig 1, for instance, if you imagine taking away the paddles, you could argue that the water is still impacting on and dragging the base of the cylinder, and that is below the cable, hence it should still wind itself up the cable, but it screams at me that it'll do no such thing and you'll be running off downstream in no time to retrieve it. That may be wrong, or it may be that in real conditions the natural changes in waves or the air currents over the water would tend to unwind it. It may seem unfair to remove the paddles and expect it to still go up-wire, but it's to make the point that there are some weird forces here. If that was fast water pulling on it, with or without it turning, a bow wave is going to ride up the upstream side, too, tending to push it downstream.

Indeed, if you put something like that in what appears to be a fairly still lake, any slight motion will unwind the cable, simply because there is a force of tension that can cause it to unwind, but you can't push a string, so it won't rewind itself very easily. In a turbulent stream, there might be some of that going on.

It's sometimes useful to think of extreme cases to see if it becomes more obvious, so what about this:

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That feels like it's got the best chance of going upstream. If we held it at the centre on an axle, of course it's just a waterwheel, and the cable does resist the force applied in a very similar fashion to a waterwheel.

I don't know if it can go DDSFTTS, or if this is the best sort of 'gear ratio':

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If you imagine the cable winders being just fairly thin wheels, joined by a long thin cylinder with fins on it, then it seems to me that the whole thing is going to be forced downstream at some fairly large fraction of water speed. My thinking is that as it does so, the vanes are forced to paddle and, although they seem to be paddling slowly by that gearing, they keep providing a little extra thrust, but maybe I've reduced them too much. I don't know. It's a little bit like the vanes on a wheel - at half the radius, a vane below the axle slows to 1/2 the speed of the wheel, so if a windcart propelled by that method has reached windspeed in a tailwind, and can't itself be pushed anymore, the vane can still gain thrust. The point at the very edge slows down to zero as it touches the ground, so a vane there could get pushed whatever speed the cart is going. Against that, there is the lever distance (being zero there), which is relatively easy to think of in the case of a mechanical wheel, but in this case it's harder. Can we think of the winding cylinder just like the wheel circumference, like the thing is rolling downstream laying cable as it goes? That seems convincing, and then my paddles here are too close to the 'axle' to be of much use. They have a great lever distance, but are moving almost at waterspeed, so the water isn't moving past them much. Yes, it looks like my first guess was a bit off. Your Fig 3 looks more likely, or perhaps somewhere between that and mine.

Interesting question. It has some strange similarities and differences to that wheel-with-vanes problem. On that, we need to get the vanes out of the way as they go forwards, so that they're not slowing the cart. Here, we aren't bothering about it so much because they're moving in air instead of water, and the water applies more pressure. However, if this thing is going at some fair old whack downstream, that might still be a problem.

What do you need it for, to send downstream faster than the stream to tell people downstream there's a crazy engineer upstream and they need to watch out for strange vehicles and taut cable coming downstream? Oh no, that would be DDSFTTV. You could warn them of floods coming, or dead goldfish. :D
 
45+ degrees?

I worked out what I believe is the answer when I was stringing data cables (1000' rolls of cat 6 on a spool). Someday I should draw the force diagram to verify If I am right.
 
It may either travel down river faster than the river or travel up the cable (faster than the cable that isn't moving) or it will sit in the middle moving slowly one way or the other but mostly splashing water because you are too close to a 1:1 gearing.

ETA: up cable is my guess given the dimensions in your drawing.



BTW: Brennan mentions that he got the idea for the torpedo by playing with cotton spools and found that when he pulled slowly on the thread, the spool moved away from him.

However, our demonstration with the yo-yo shows it clearly moving up the string towards the puller. How is this apparent contradiction reconciled?
I don't understand. Where did you get 'what Brennan said' from, and couldn't it be a typo or mistake of his own - esp. if he noticed a cotton spool coming towards the pulled cotton, but then went on to design a torpedo that went away? [ETA, the other kind being a bit dangerous!]

I'd like to read your solution for the change point to it going away.
 
I don't understand. Where did you get 'what Brennan said' from, and couldn't it be a typo or mistake of his own - esp. if he noticed a cotton spool coming towards the pulled cotton, but then went on to design a torpedo that went away? [ETA, the other kind being a bit dangerous!]

I'd like to read your solution for the change point to it going away.

When the Brennan torpedo was first presented, I followed the link and did some searching on my own. I'm not sure where I found that statement but it was similar to my own experience.


The transition point is easy to find. Just draw a picture of the spool with the thread being pulled at an angle. Write the equation for the motion of the thread given a motion of the spool. The transition point is where the thread doesn't move so solve the equation after substitution zero for the thread motion.

I just did this and confirmed what I already thought was the answer.
 
When the Brennan torpedo was first presented, I followed the link and did some searching on my own. I'm not sure where I found that statement but it was similar to my own experience.

The only reference I could find is in "Nineteenth-century Torpedoes and Their Inventors" by Edwyn Gray. Gray states that there are two stories concerning Brennan's inspiration: his colleague Robert Graham said that Brennan had the idea while musing on the way a belt-driven planing machine worked, while Norman Tomlinson (one of Brennan's first biographers) claims that it was the cotton reel:

"...Brennan had initially visuallized the concept by noting that a cotton reel, if the thread is pulled toward the operator from underneath, moves forward, not backward."

Since Tomlinson (or possibly Gray, since he doesn't quote him directly) neglects to say if "forward" means towards the operator or away from the operator, that doesn't help us much. I think it's possible that Tomlinson or somebody else made the story up: maybe Brennan used a cotton reel as an analogy to explain how the torpedo worked and this got transformed into the typical "eureka" discovery myth. I also wonder if Tomlinson or Gray had really worked out which way the cotton reel would move.

For the record, the first references to the Brennan torpedo in relation to the current DDWFTTW debates that I could find are:

- 12 December 2008: BoingBoing, comment #51 from MOREHUMANTHANHUMAN, (who also says he built a version of my "down the ruler" cart but it didn't work: he must have built it wrong!)

- 15 December 2008: Rhett Allain's Dot Physics blog, comment #29 from Jason Rogers.
 
When the Brennan torpedo was first presented, I followed the link and did some searching on my own. I'm not sure where I found that statement but it was similar to my own experience.


The transition point is easy to find. Just draw a picture of the spool with the thread being pulled at an angle. Write the equation for the motion of the thread given a motion of the spool. The transition point is where the thread doesn't move so solve the equation after substitution zero for the thread motion.

I just did this and confirmed what I already thought was the answer.
I used another method. Now I'm wondering what your answer is, and if I can use your method of the motion of the string. Anyway, here's my solution:

I think I'm right in saying that the angle depends on the ratios of the winding circle and the rolling circle. I get the angle from the horizontal as

sin-1(Rwind/Rroll) ... i.e. the arc-cosine of the winding radius over the rolling radius.

I figure this by drawing the continuation of the pulled cotton, the tangent it makes with the winding circle, until it intersects with the ground. If that is 'this side of' where the wheel touches, then there is a leverage in one direction (rolling it away), and if it is 'the other side of' the resting point, there is leverage in the other (rolling it towards the puller). That crossover point changes with the ratio of the radii, and the rest is just knowing your sins and cosines, which I'm embarrassed to say I had to bleedin' look up!

Is that right?

So, I've shown you mine...
 
Yep, that's the same answer I got. But I wonder if you actually solved it or did you just find the angle from what you thought was the answer.

My initial guess was that it had to do with the intersection of the thread force with the point of rolling contact. The proof was to calculate the motion of the thread and see that it produced the same answer.

The thread motion can be found by considering a delta rotation of the spool. Each delta radian rotation of the spool unwinds one delta thread radius of thread and moves the spool away by one delta spool radius which pulls the thread back by the sin of the angle of pull (where an angle of 0 is horizontal and pulling from the bottom of the spool).

tm = dw * tr - dw * sr * sin ( a )

setting tm = 0 and solving for a gives:

a = arcsin(tr/sr)
 
"...Brennan had initially visuallized the concept by noting that a cotton reel, if the thread is pulled toward the operator from underneath, moves forward, not backward."

I probably read that account in the wikipedia article. For historical reference, there is an early reference to the cotton reel origin for Brennan's idea here (published 1891)
 
Yep, that's the same answer I got. But I wonder if you actually solved it or did you just find the angle from what you thought was the answer.
Well that depends on what you consider thinking and what you consider reliable knowledge:
I'm not used to all this delta rotations stuff, so for me that would require further taking apart to prove to myself. To you it is reliable knowledge. How far do we go back to first principles: aren't you just assuming that a wheel will rotate? Sines and cosines - do we go back to proving them? - etc.

I know with a fair degree of certainty that the spool, like any simple wheel, can be thought of as a lever, and that its point of contact with the ground is its fulcrum - it can't have any other as it isn't on an axle or anything. You can argue that the point where the cotton touches could also be a fulcrum, but that's just how it is with levers. As they move, the angles of the applied forces changes, so both points are a pair of fulcrums. I'm also fairly confident that I only need to consider a single position, even though the angles will change once things move.

We can therefore ignore the odd shape of the spool altogether and consider it just as a zero width and zero mass* lever between the point of contact and the point where the cotton meets it. All the rest is just 'shape' and does nothing to the conditions (if we are ignoring inertia, since we can pull arbitrarily slowly). It's then as obvious as which way a lever will move.

*The shape of the lever is such that it effectively removes the involvement of gravity. Whatever we do to that beam, it is still perfectly balanced, with no other force on it than the pull of the string and its opposite reaction. Hence the whole thing could be thought of as weightless or horizontal.
 
Regardless of how Brennan came up with the torpedo idea it was built and it worked (unless it‘s another fake moon landing conspiracy).

Every time I have measured the “stall” angle of the “cotton reel” string it has been 45 degrees to the surface. Below 45 rolls the reel towards, above 45 rolls it away.

So what way would this device roll? . . .


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Every time I have measured the “stall” angle of the “cotton reel” string it has been 45 degrees to the surface. Below 45 rolls the reel towards, above 45 rolls it away.

That would indicate that the ratio of outer diameter to inner diameter is about 1.4 to 1. I'm sure that Dan and John are correct: use different shaped cotton reels, or make some reels with lego or something similar in order to test it.

So what way would this device roll? . . .

[qimg]http://www.accommodationz.co.nz/images/rollers.bmp[/qimg]

Towards the direction of pull.
 
That would indicate that the ratio of outer diameter to inner diameter is about 1.4 to 1. I'm sure that Dan and John are correct: use different shaped cotton reels, or make some reels with lego or something similar in order to test it.
Regardless of the ratios I always get 45 degrees from the horizontal as the “stall” angle.


Towards the direction of pull.
Correct. The 45 degree angle still applies, even when the string is also taken down and under the trailing wheel.
 
Regardless of the ratios I always get 45 degrees from the horizontal as the “stall” angle.
Do you mean from experimenting or maths? I was surprised on drawing a few examples that there is quite a wide range of ratios that would appear to give the stall around 45 degrees. It might need to be a smaller winding circle than you might think to be very obviously different, but I haven't tested it myself. I'll try some soon. Another possible difference between the math and your results might be that the maths applies to perfect systems. Ordinary bits and bobs we make with toilet rolls and cotton act in more random ways. There is also the inertia and (once some movement occurs) momentum, and the ability of a cotton reel or similar to slide a little on most surfaces. The maths assumes that the wheel will always roll, never slide, never have any resistance to rolling, never gain any momentum, etc.



Correct. The 45 degree angle still applies, even when the string is also taken down and under the trailing wheel.
Yes, I agree. It doesn't really matter what happens to the cord once it's in the bowels of the machine, is how it seems to me. What matters is the point where the force is first applied (given that there aren't other things happening, like it could tip over, etc.) - I suppose you mean that your pull end is less than the stall angle, being negative, below the horizontal. And I won't hear any of your 45 degree nonsense!

That raises another question - where the other limit is. If you increase the angle beyond the stall angle and it rolls away, then go right over the top, it will continue to roll in the same direction, although that's now towards you, but slower than you're pulling, but you could pull further and further round, even going under again. At some point it must return to the "less than stall angle". Where?
 
I read you answer again (this time while I was awake) and agree it is a valid answer.
Thanks Dan. I consider that a great compliment. I looked at it again more carefully and was fairly confident. I'm going to get my head round yours when I get time. I can sort of see that it works, I just need to follow it properly (when I'm awake). :)
 
I used another method. Now I'm wondering what your answer is, and if I can use your method of the motion of the string. Anyway, here's my solution:

I think I'm right in saying that the angle depends on the ratios of the winding circle and the rolling circle. I get the angle from the horizontal as

sin-1(Rwind/Rroll) ... i.e. the arc-cosine of the winding radius over the rolling radius.

I figure this by drawing the continuation of the pulled cotton, the tangent it makes with the winding circle, until it intersects with the ground. If that is 'this side of' where the wheel touches, then there is a leverage in one direction (rolling it away), and if it is 'the other side of' the resting point, there is leverage in the other (rolling it towards the puller). That crossover point changes with the ratio of the radii, and the rest is just knowing your sins and cosines, which I'm embarrassed to say I had to bleedin' look up!

Is that right?

So, I've shown you mine...

:confused: Oh no, now I'm confused! I just noticed that I'd put "sin-1" and then "arc-cosine". I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be the arc cosine in mine. Yep, adjacent & hypot. I checked yours, Dan, and you've got arcsin! Copying my wrong answers? ;)

More coffee!
 
Regardless of the ratios I always get 45 degrees from the horizontal as the “stall” angle.

Try an extreme case like a round coffee tin with the plastic cap on both ends or two large wheels with a thin axle between them.


Correct. The 45 degree angle still applies, even when the string is also taken down and under the trailing wheel.

The angle comes from the rate that the string unwinds so it doesn't matter where the string goes after that as long as it doesn't upset the ballance. In the case of just the spool there is a simple mechanical construct that John pointed out.
 

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