Whats Wrong With My Honey?

[tesscaline]

I was just using that as an example. I use plastic boards for most applications. I have separate boards for meat and poultry. I have a wood board that I use for slicing bread or other "dry" foods on, and I just got a small bamboo board that I plan to use as a "bar" board, for slicing the occasional lime for cocktails, etc.

Glad to hear! I wish everyone was as conscious about their preparation surfaces!

What pressure? If you cut it from the edge, you can do it two-fingered. Isn't the common test for whether your knife is sharp enough performed by slicing a sheet of paper in just such a manner?

That's not what's being discussed here. The example I refer to is using a knife to cut the parchment for making items "en papillote" -- this is not a quick no-pressure cut, it is a long slice through more than one layer of paper, with a hard surface underneath.

While the paper may be much tougher, you're not cutting through a stack; you cut through a wafer-thin sheet.

See above.

I guess that's where my skepticism comes into play: If I used my knife for cutting parchment (which I don't--there's a cutter on the box, and scissors are much easier), it would be once or twice a month at most. By comparison, I probably make thousands of cuts through food items in that same period. I know that argument from personal incredulity is a logical falacy, but I'd need serious evidence to be convinced that those occasional swipes through paper are doing more damage to my knife than the thousands of strokes through meat and produce in the same period.

So then perform the experiments I detailed. You don't have to rely on my word. Use a knife to cut through equal amounts paper and food. See the evidence for yourself.

And by the way? Your "occasional swipes through paper are doing more damage to my knife than the thousands of strokes through meat and produce" is a bit of a strawman. That is not what is being argued. The argument is that cutting paper with a knife dulls it faster than cutting food does. To test that argument, you'd have to cut equal amounts of food and paper, and compare blade deterioration rates.

 

[EHocking]

Eh, I'm not interested in starting a war either.

Thing is, all these "which is better" questions are highly dependent up on the situation.

I agree. I should have noted that I do, of course, have an acrylic board as well.

However, in an industrial setting, those small differences can have a huge impact both to sanitation and cost concerns.

I approach the matter from an industrial point of view, as I was trained that way. And in an industrial setting, "extreme decontamination procedures" are rather necessary.

Horses for courses. I can see the cause for the distinction between our attitude.

Basically, we're both right.

In-re your ETA: Yes, end grain wooden boards are better than plank wood. End grain is easier on knives than plank. Plank wood also has a tendency to warp and splinter if treated improperly (note the "treated improperly" part -- a well cared for board will last for decades, but one thrown in the dishwasher repeatedly will only last for months, if that), and most people do treat them improperly, which is one reason why I advocate plastic boards instead (not the paper thin bendable kind mind you, the 1/2-3/4" thick white ones) -- you can mistreat them and they'll still last for years being thrown in a dishwasher

I learned the hard way that cheap wooden boards don't like dishwashers....

 

[tesscaline]

I learned the hard way that cheap wooden boards don't like dishwashers....

Yeah... I made the mistake of putting a knife with a wooden handle in the dishwasher once... Never put anything wooden in the dishwasher ever again after that. I think my mom is still ticked about that knife handle cracking and falling off mid-chop though. Oh well.

 

[EHocking]

Yeah... I made the mistake of putting a knife with a wooden handle in the dishwasher once... Never put anything wooden in the dishwasher ever again after that. I think my mom is still ticked about that knife handle cracking and falling off mid-chop though. Oh well.

Bone handled knives don't like 'em either. Fortunately my grandmother never asked to see the gifts she'd made of them to me post-dishwasher.

 

[ZirconBlue]

That's not what's being discussed here. The example I refer to is using a knife to cut the parchment for making items "en papillote" -- this is not a quick no-pressure cut, it is a long slice through more than one layer of paper, with a hard surface underneath.

Ah. Therein lies the confusion. This wasn't explicit in your original post, and I was thinking of a different (possibly imaginary) episode. I don't recall seeing the particular situation you are discribing.


Regarding dishwashers and knives: I've got a not-too-expensive, but very-good-for-it's price chef's knife with a synthetic handle. I always handwash it because I had gotten the impression that it wasn't dishwasher-safe. Do dishwashers have any negative effects on the blade, itself, or is it just the handle one need worry about?


ETA: My apologies for the lengthy derail that was caused, apparently, by my misunderstanding the situation described in the earlier post.

 

[madurobob]

Regarding dishwashers and knives: I've got a not-too-expensive, but very-good-for-it's price chef's knife with a synthetic handle. I always handwash it because I had gotten the impression that it wasn't dishwasher-safe. Do dishwashers have any negative effects on the blade, itself, or is it just the handle one need worry about?

I *think* the issue with knives in the dishwasher is the drying. IIRC this is similar to razors in the shower: the blades are so sharp that the edge rusts away quickly in a wet environment. In other words, its rust, not your beard, that dulls the blade. With razors, thoroughly drying them after each use makes them last damn near forever. Similar with knives - drying them quickly and thoroughly protects the edge.

 

[casebro]

I've been a machinist, a wood carver, and cook.

Tools wear. Sharpen as necessary. Replace as necessary.

It's surprising what materials are most abrasive. Plastics are very bad for tools. So is paper. And juicy materials corrode the edge away. But learn to sharpen tools, and sharpen as required, then use whatever tool is most efficient. I think a professional is a fool if he makes himself go across the room and back to get a pair of scissors instead of using the tool at hand.

My favorite tool for most jobs is high-carbon steel with a wooden handle. Easy to sharpen, stays sharp, and easy to grip. Rust is only raw iron, you need it in trace amounts anyway.

Re: germs and cutting boards, I think this is all part of our trend to huge companies. When a local supplier screws up, a few locals suffer. But with huge insurance companies being liable for millions of people's losses, the one-in-a-million means a daily occurrence to the huge companies. But it is still one in a million to each of us. Don't lose any sleep over things like germy cutting boards, or waste any effort arguing about them. Only one chicken in 10,000 has enough salmonella to worry about anyway, I don't think I'll eat 10,000 chickens in my lifetime. And even with all of their industrial quality sanitation, big plants still cause epidemics, we homebodies probably can't avoid germs anyhow. Just puke and bear it. But don't lose any sleep over it in the mean time.

 

[tesscaline]

I *think* the issue with knives in the dishwasher is the drying. IIRC this is similar to razors in the shower: the blades are so sharp that the edge rusts away quickly in a wet environment. In other words, its rust, not your beard, that dulls the blade. With razors, thoroughly drying them after each use makes them last damn near forever. Similar with knives - drying them quickly and thoroughly protects the edge.

The drying is one aspect, though not as much of an issue as you'd think. There are several other aspects which are a tad bit more important.

The first being that in a dishwasher, the contents have a tendency to be jostled about, and the edge gets bounced off the rack causing dings that decrease edge efficiency. Sometimes these can easily be honed out on a sharpening block, sometimes they can't. If you are going to put a good knife in the dishwasher, make sure to lay it flat on the top rack, with the sharp edge facing away from any of the upright prongs. Never ever ever put a good knife end up in the cutlery basket! You risk breaking off the tip (my mother did this once, and was fairly devastated over it). Another is the effect of high heat and steam on the handles of the knives. If you are using a knife with a wooden, bone, or plastic handle, the handle can warp and become loosened, shortening the life of the knife. If you are using a knife that's solid steel, this is less of an issue.

Frankly, there's no need to put a chef's knife in a dishwasher. It's a non-porous tool, and a quick run with soapy hot water should be enough to dislodge anything stuck to it. If you're worried about disinfecting, you can just take a quick wipe down on it with a cloth or paper towel treated with bleach. But really disinfecting a household use knife shouldn't be necessary as long as it's kept free of debris.

In terms of battling rust (which really isn't good for the blade, and doesn't taste good mixed into food), hone out any rust spots, and buff with just about any food-grade oil afterwards. Olive or vegetable oil work fine, just make sure to really buff it off -- you don't want to leave a thick coating and end up with rancid oil hanging around on your knife blade. But any blade that is washed immediately after use and then dried properly after washing shouldn't have rust issues unless you're living in a very humid environment (like, say, hawaii). If you do live in a humid environment, keep some of the silica packets that come in various products (shoes, nori packets, etc.) and throw them in your knife drawer. Or keep a small box of baking soda in there. Change them out every 6 months or so, and you should be golden

 

[tesscaline]

I've been a machinist, a wood carver, and cook.

Tools wear. Sharpen as necessary. Replace as necessary.

It's surprising what materials are most abrasive. Plastics are very bad for tools. So is paper. And juicy materials corrode the edge away. But learn to sharpen tools, and sharpen as required, then use whatever tool is most efficient. I think a professional is a fool if he makes himself go across the room and back to get a pair of scissors instead of using the tool at hand.

And I think that any chef who will risk ruining his blade because he's too lazy to make sure he has the proper tools for the job is a fool. Part of being a professional is knowing and respecting the tools of your trade. Don't disrespect your expensive kitchen knives by using them to cut parchment paper.

My favorite tool for most jobs is high-carbon steel with a wooden handle. Easy to sharpen, stays sharp, and easy to grip. Rust is only raw iron, you need it in trace amounts anyway.

Wooden handles are the least durable handle available for chef's knives. Wooden handles wear down and split over time due to a high degree of exposure to water and other liquids. The best handles for chef's knives are texturized plastic or steel.

Re: germs and cutting boards, I think this is all part of our trend to huge companies. When a local supplier screws up, a few locals suffer. But with huge insurance companies being liable for millions of people's losses, the one-in-a-million means a daily occurrence to the huge companies. But it is still one in a million to each of us. Don't lose any sleep over things like germy cutting boards, or waste any effort arguing about them. Only one chicken in 10,000 has enough salmonella to worry about anyway, I don't think I'll eat 10,000 chickens in my lifetime. And even with all of their industrial quality sanitation, big plants still cause epidemics, we homebodies probably can't avoid germs anyhow. Just puke and bear it. But don't lose any sleep over it in the mean time.

No, it's not how you describe it at all, and I'd really like to see where you came up with the "only one chicken in 10,000 has enough salmonella to worry about" figure, as if chicken were the only cause of food borne illness...

I also really hope you're joking when you say that "we homebodies probably can't avoid germs anyway. Just puke and bear it" as food borne illness can be not only serious but life threatening as well and is very much avoidable in the home by following some very simple food preparation precautions.

 

[madurobob]

FYI - brief discussion here about what dulls razors:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96612

 

[quarky]

ahem,

honey?

Knife blades are the exact opposite of honey.
This degree of thread drift seems unusual.

Let's say you had a cube of frozen honey, about the size of your head...what would be the best knife to cut it with?

 

[tesscaline]

ahem,

honey?

Knife blades are the exact opposite of honey.
This degree of thread drift seems unusual.

Let's say you had a cube of frozen honey, about the size of your head...what would be the best knife to cut it with?

No knife. A hack saw might do the job though

 

[soylent]

This is simply a matter of a high school experiment. If you make a very concentrated sugar solution (which honey is) it can undergo a physical (not chemical nor nutritional) change as it cools. In some cases the sugar can come out of solution as crystals of the same compound that was in the clear product.

If you have many different kinds of sugar they tend to prevent the formation of crystals large enough that you'll notice them. For making sweets you'd usually use sucrose and partially hydrolyzed starch(e.g. corn syrup) containing mainly glucose but also a bunch of longer glucose chains like maltose and maltodextrins; sometimes invert sugar or high fructose corn-syrup is used(basically the same thing; in the invert sugar case you hydrolyse sucrose into fructose and glucose in equal proportion, in the HFCS case you hydrolyze corn starch into corn-syrup and then use an enzyme to convert some glucose molecules to fructose molecules, usually about half).

The typical sugar content in honey is very close to high-fructose corn syrup(HFCS-55) in composition, mixed with small amounts of di- and trisaccharides.

 

[madurobob]

ahem,

honey?

Knife blades are the exact opposite of honey.
This degree of thread drift seems unusual.

Let's say you had a cube of frozen honey, about the size of your head...what would be the best knife to cut it with?

An Uncapping Knife, of course.

I still have one of those from my beekeeping days of the 70s.

I'm sure it needs a good sharpening.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And I think that any chef who will risk ruining his blade because he's too lazy to make sure he has the proper tools for the job is a fool. Part of being a professional is knowing and respecting the tools of your trade. Don't disrespect your expensive kitchen knives by using them to cut parchment paper.

BUt the home cook who does it once every three months instead of many times in one day probably does not need to worry about it as much.

 

[ponderingturtle]

ahem,

honey?

Knife blades are the exact opposite of honey.
This degree of thread drift seems unusual.

Let's say you had a cube of frozen honey, about the size of your head...what would be the best knife to cut it with?

Electric knife, but an bandsaw would be best.

No make that the electric knife, that could do very very annoying things to clean the band saw. Maybe a Reciprocating saw though, I have seen long blades for them that could do the job.

 

[quarky]

Glad we're back on topic.

(Whew! That was close!)

 

[Anerystos]

One of the entertaining aspects of the forums (at least, to me) is the way that they drift in all sorts of directions.

I've learned two things from this one:

(a) how honey crystallizes.

(b) why kitchen knives go blunt.

Neither of these is going to change my life irrevocably, but both clear up minor wonders I have had.

May drift continue; nay, may it be encouraged!

 

[ZirconBlue]

One of the entertaining aspects of the forums (at least, to me) is the way that they drift in all sorts of directions.

I've learned two things from this one:

(a) how honey crystallizes.

(b) why kitchen knives go blunt.

Neither of these is going to change my life irrevocably, but both clear up minor wonders I have had.

May drift continue; nay, may it be encouraged!

I've reported your off-topic post.