Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

[makaya325]

Makaya, among other things, I am waiting for...

You to cite the post where I ave been relying on CSICOP for my research regarding this thread and an explanation why you said so if you can't

Im wrong
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An answer to "Are you saying my research is BS? Are you saying that the information that I have researched that was put on the internet by various native groups in order to preserve traditional knowledge and educate others about their cultures is BS?"

No, But you shouldnt cite the debunker sources all the time. Try mixing it up

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You addressing my questioning you on why you originally were saying the PNW natives see Bigfoot as a totally normal animal without any supernatural element.

EVERY single animal has magical powers.
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You citing an example of a traditional tale of the Hupa about Bigfoot. Not a Bigfoot enthusiast's website reference.

What should it be from? A cynics site?

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Evidence that all NA tribes have a Bigfoot figure.

Look at the list of names

Please do not post a one or two sentence response shirking off the rebuttals to your own statements. If you can't handle them, don't make points you can't back in the first place. Do not ask me to address something else first. Please use the quote function to ensure a proper response to this post.

1. Im wrong

 

[kitakaze]

Im wrong

Yes, I'm well aware you were wrong. What I want is an explanation what on Earth made you spit out the idea that I use CSICOP for my research. Why did you do that, makaya?

No, But you shouldnt cite the debunker sources all the time. Try mixing it up

What ever are you talking about? What debunker sources. The sources I largely use are those of the native tribes themselves or anthropological sources that have no connection to supporting or refutung Bigfoot.

EVERY single animal has magical powers

Substantiation, not repetition. More importantly, that is not any kind of accounting for why you originally said PNW natives have no supernatural element to Bigfoot and moved the goal posts after I showed that to be false by saying every animal is supernatural. It's a flop, a cheat, and an insincere debate tactic.

What should it be from? A cynics site?

This is more evasion. All I'm asking you is to give us an example of a traditional Hupa tale of Bigfoot. I said don't give me any Bigfoot enthusiast sites. That means an un-biased source. If it that is some major challenge for you, then I 'll give you a pass and you can just say something from your long memory of Bigfoot and I'll research it my self.

Look at the list of names.

Which list? The one put together by Bigfoot enthusiasts? Yes, we've been doing that extensively in this thread you haven't read from the very first post onward. I asked you for evidence for your claim that all tribes in NA have a Bigfoot figure. You're still dodging.

 

[makaya325]

Yes, I'm well aware you were wrong. What I want is an explanation what on Earth made you spit out the idea that I use CSICOP for my research. Why did you do that, makaya?



What ever are you talking about? What debunker sources. The sources I largely use are those of the native tribes themselves or anthropological sources that have no connection to supporting or refutung Bigfoot.



Substantiation, not repetition. More importantly, that is not any kind of accounting for why you originally said PNW natives have no supernatural element to Bigfoot and moved the goal posts after I showed that to be false by saying every animal is supernatural. It's a flop, a cheat, and an insincere debate tactic.



This is more evasion. All I'm asking you is to give us an example of a traditional Hupa tale of Bigfoot. I said don't give me any Bigfoot enthusiast sites. That means an un-biased source. If it that is some major challenge for you, then I 'll give you a pass and you can just say something from your long memory of Bigfoot and I'll research it my self.



Which list? The one put together by Bigfoot enthusiasts? Yes, we've been doing that extensively in this thread you haven't read from the very first post onward. I asked you for evidence for your claim that all tribes in NA have a Bigfoot figure. You're still dodging.

Kitz, tribes have tales of REAL creatures respected for their interaction with the physical world. Remove the abilities from these mythical ones, and it turns out to be an ape

 

[xblade]

Kitz, tribes have tales of REAL creatures respected for their interaction with the physical world. Remove the abilities from these mythical ones, and it turns out to be an ape

Cool. Can anybody from one of these tribes lead us to one of these apes? You know, like they can with the REAL creatures.

 

[makaya325]

Cool. Can anybody from one of these tribes lead us to one of these apes? You know, like they can with the REAL creatures.

x, why dont you just ask a native to lead you to one. Go to a nearby reservation?

There are legends of fox's dissapearing, yet we know they exist. Weird huh?

 

[I Am He]

Makaya, may I ask you a question, who are We??


I Am He

 

[makaya325]

Makaya, may I ask you a question, who are We??


I Am He

Hupas/Hoopas.

I meant Coyote the trickster

 

[kitakaze]

Hupas/Hoopas.

I meant Coyote the trickster

And yet it's funny that after countless requests, makaya has yet to provide a single example of a traditional tale of Bigfoot. These tales that he tells us he has heard since he could crawl. And to the contrary, this figure he correlated to Bigfoot, Oh-Mah, has been shown in Hupa traditions to be regarded as a devil sorcerer possessing mystical arrows and black magic.

 

[makaya325]

And yet it's funny that after countless requests, makaya has yet to provide a single example of a traditional tale of Bigfoot. These tales that he tells us he has heard since he could crawl. And to the contrary, this figure he correlated to Bigfoot, Oh-Mah, has been shown in Hupa traditions to be regarded as a devil sorcerer possessing mystical arrows and black magic.

The oh-mah is a beast! He could kill a man when challenged. A spirit of the forest can glide without even being seen.

Yes, he does have legendary arrows. There is another creature in my culture that is very different, and doesnt use technology. It is described as a 9ft tall giant with hair.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

And what is it called ?

 

[kitakaze]

The oh-mah is a beast! He could kill a man when challenged. A spirit of the forest can glide without even being seen.

Yes, he does have legendary arrows. There is another creature in my culture that is very different, and doesnt use technology. It is described as a 9ft tall giant with hair.

I'll put that down as close an admission that Oh-Mah is not Bigfoot as we're going to get from you. Now your reference to the other 9ft hairy giant - what do you suppose was missing? I'll give you hint: It's between you and I. (where I'm looking)

 

[Ravenwood]

Kitakaze, you wouldn't perchance be referring to Yahyahaas would you?

 

[makaya325]

And what is it called ?

Al Bundy

 

[RayG]

For this post I will focus on Henry Franzoni (Henry James Franzoni III) who has turned out to be an interesting character to say the least. As it turns out, and I can't claim to be overly surprised, Franzoni is quite the eccentric and a bigfoot paranormalist (one who doesn't believe BF is simply a flesh and blood animal). IMO, he seems to be the most lucid of the interdimensional, telepathic bigfoot fans I've come across. Apparently, he has retired from the field of bigfootery.

Henry has unretired and is posting over at the BFF. His summarized bigfoot 'theory' can be read here.

RayG

 

[kitakaze]

Henry has unretired and is posting over at the BFF. His summarized bigfoot 'theory' can be read here.

RayG

He's fared well...

Indian Place Names = arrival of Lines of Force from the Magnetosphere, lines of force actually existing = NASA = James Clerk Maxwell being right about the structure of lines of force in his 1861 paper, = current science has overlooked things in the structure of magnetic and electric fields... big things... leads to huge problems in understanding what energy is= lines of force coming to Earth where the sightings are most frequent... revisiting Aether theory, vitalism, and the biggy, Macak Energy, available energy in Earth environment, ability to focus energy with its mind, the implication of the structure of time and awareness upon 3D space, intelligence mission not science, gathering intelligence on intellect, what F & B is, how it works, puzzling powers, puzzling powers as described by Indians, why our science needs to be opened up in order to understand this. How the merger of Indian intelligence and nineteenth century science for a framework for understanding the puzzling powers. art not science. How Tesla understood energy and how the Seatco understand and use energy. How Faraday's ideas are still relevant. Where they live. How they do what they do while being a F & B creature. What puzzling powers they actually have. How all of this was described over and over again for hundreds of years in Indian lore, without being understood. Why science as we know it today doesn't understand it. Re-examining base assumptions in order to grasp what you are experiencing: What is this place we live, what is time, what is space, what is awareness, what is energy?

I chocolate Wednesday finger manager it kiwi.

 

[RayG]

Henry seems to be having a bit of a meltdown over there about his pet 'theory'.

RayG

 

[LTC8K6]

His summarized bigfoot 'theory' can be read here.

 

[Drewbot]

This photo website shows KATHY STRAIN advocating that these masks actually represent Bigfoot. Kathy, do you have the Native American name of the beast these masks are representing?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/believeit/4024030791/

Kathy Strain showed us common native American costumes that represent Bigfoot.

 

[Drewbot]

Here are a couple masks from the Detroit Institute of Arts.


Note: The embellishment, i.e. sharp, angular features, is to make the masks stand out in the dimly lit dance hall.



The Africans at least got the Chimpanzee right.

 

[kitakaze]

Willie Seaweed, the carver of those masks, was an extremely accomplished Kwakwaka'wakw artist. There isn't anything to really add that hasn't been covered on page one about the mythical boogeyman (woman) aspects of the tales of dsonoqua, but I bolded some points of interest from Seaweed's wiki entry...

Early life
Kwakwaka'wakw carver Willie Seaweed was born in 1893 at Blunden Harbour, British Columbia, where he lived until his death in 1967. Both his parents came from chiefly lines[1] and so as chief of the Nakwaktokw band, Seaweed was called Heyhlamas or Rights Maker. His informal name was Kwaghitola or Smoky Top. Seaweed was his official Canadian name, as First People had to have a legal name recognized by the government.

Seaweed’s father was a Kwakwaka'wakw chief and died when he was a young boy. Somehow Seaweed managed to avoid attending the government boarding school, as was the practice at the time. As a result he maintained and spoke his Kwak'wala language during his entire lifetime. During his childhood, Seaweed apprenticed in carving with his half brother Johnny Davis.

Professional life
Seaweed was a Northwest Coast carver in the tradition of Charles James, Mungo Martin and Charles Edenshaw. His professional career coincided with the Canadian ban on the Potlatch ceremony. During this time Seaweed carved totem poles, coppers, headdresses, drums, rattles, whistles, and masks as well as painting house fronts. Most of Seaweed’s work was considered illegal because they consisted of ceremonial items and had to do with chiefly duties or public speaking.

There are over 120 known and cataloged examples of Seaweed’s work in existence. Many more examples probably exist in private collections or within the Kwakwaka'wakw community as gifts from potlatch ceremonies. Seaweed used his extensive knowledge of traditional stories, songs and dances and incorporated them into his work.

Artistic style
Seaweed was also an innovator who developed the staid Kwakwaka'wakw art style into a more dynamic and flamboyant expression. Combined with Chief George, Charley George Sr. and George Walkus, Seaweed helped to create a new Kwakwaka'wakw style in the 1920’s. This group of artists known as the “Kwakwaka'wakw Four” employed devices such as painting the background of a piece white, and using high gloss enamel paints in red, black, orange, yellow, blue and green, to give their work a more theatrical appearance. Seaweed also began using tools such as a compass and straight edge for precision line work and near perfect circles.

Seaweed was very prolific in his time. Of the more than 120 items collected, two thirds of these were masks. His masks tended to fall into three categories: Hamatsa (Cannibal Raven), Atlakam (Spirits of the Forest), and Tsonoqua (Cannibal Grandmother).

The entry mentions another famous Kwakwaka'wakw carver and chief, Mungo Martin, who carved the totem pole seen here and the Wawadit'la, or "Big House" seen behind it at Thunderbird Park beside the Royal British Columbia Museum here in Victoria, British Columbia. At the bottom of the totem you will notice that Martin carved his rendition of dsonoqua...