Obama Orders Halt To Gitmo Tribunals

[DrBaltar]

What are the consequences of locking people up indefinitely without a fair trial?

Uh, they're not able to commit acts of violence against the US or anyone else? These people are not US citizens. They are enemy prisoners of war. They should be locked up at least until the war is over.

 

[BPSCG]

I really don't see the problem for the non-combatants erroneously or accidentally picked up in a war zone. Once we determine they are were non-combatants, we should simply drop them off in the same neighborhood where they were picked up, in the host country they were touring (that would be Afghanistan, right?).

I would not be averse to giving them a nice apology and some money by way of reparation for damages. "Gee, we're really sorry, hope you understand, these things can happen in the fog of war, here's five thousand U.S. dollars, go buy yourself a nice rocket launcher wide-screen TV. And of course, no charge for the medical care we gave you while in custody - the immunizations, the removal of the cancerous tumors..."

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Wasn't Jose Padilla, US citizen, seized on US soil and denied access to a lawyer or even changed for years?

Yes.

The talking point response is "But lawyers had the right to challenge in court the issue of whether he should have access to a lawyer, and in the end after extensive procedural runarounds they managed to get him access to a lawyer, so the system works! Therefore he was never really deprived of any rights at all in those years when he was held without charges, evidence or legal advice!".

 

[Upchurch]

Uh, they're not able to commit acts of violence against the US or anyone else? These people are not US citizens. They are enemy prisoners of war. They should be locked up at least until the war is over.

When is that? Who signs the peace treaty?

Or is that another way of saying they should be locked up forever?

 

[CFLarsen]

Caught persons who have enter into a state of war are called "prisoners of war". The inmates at Gitmo are not "enemy prisoners of war".

The consequences of locking people up indefinitely without a fair trial are that any kinds of freedom for anyone go out the window.

Better lock everyone up forever, so they are not able to commit acts of violence against the US or anyone else!

 

[Phaedrus74]

Uh, they're not able to commit acts of violence against the US or anyone else? These people are not US citizens. They are enemy prisoners of war. They should be locked up at least until the war is over.

My understanding was that they are not prisoners of war as per the Geneva convention but "illegal combatants". And that that latter "status" justified the treatment they got.

If they are prisoners of war then I agree with you that they should be held and become subject of a prisoner exchange....

 

[Tailgater]

Padilla is probably crying like a baby every night wishing he was out of the supermax and back in gitmo.

 

[Region Rat]

Caught persons who have enter into a state of war are called "prisoners of war". The inmates at Gitmo are not "enemy prisoners of war".

The consequences of locking people up indefinitely without a fair trial are that any kinds of freedom for anyone go out the window.

Better lock everyone up forever, so they are not able to commit acts of violence against the US or anyone else!

Yes, and obviously that has been what the US Government has been doing for the last 7 years. In fact, there are no real Cubans in Cuba anymore. They've all been pushed out to make room for 'everyone' that the US is locking up. And I'm pretty pissed that my freedoms have all gone out the window because of this practice. I had to go through 5 checkpoints on my way to work and show my ID papers. I have to go through the same 5 to get to the courthouse to bail out my son, who was picked up for wearing a Che Guevera tee shirt.

Oh, wait....

 

[Tailgater]

Caught persons who have enter into a state of war are called "prisoners of war". The inmates at Gitmo are not "enemy prisoners of war".

The consequences of locking people up indefinitely without a fair trial are that any kinds of freedom for anyone go out the window.

Better lock everyone up forever, so they are not able to commit acts of violence against the US or anyone else!

Ya, everyone gets caught after a long trip overseas with $10,000, a cell phone, and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives.

It's just unfortunate they didn't catch him far enough along to get a treason conviction.

 

[DrBaltar]

When is that? Who signs the peace treaty?

Or is that another way of saying they should be locked up forever?

A war is over when it becomes so unbearable to one side or the other that they no longer have the will to keep fighting, or they are unable to keep fighting. And yes, usually at this point a peace treaty would be signed. I'm pretty sure someone who speaks for Al Qaeda is able to sign their name. Otherwise, any cease fire is as worthless as the cease fires between Hamas and Israel. I stand by my original statement. The Gitmo prisoners should be held at least until the end of the war. I will add that BPSCG is of course right - if they are found innocent, compensate them and send them on their way. Many who are released though are right back into the fight.

Better lock everyone up forever, so they are not able to commit acts of violence against the US or anyone else!

Away with you strawman.

My understanding was that they are not prisoners of war as per the Geneva convention but "illegal combatants". And that that latter "status" justified the treatment they got.

If they are prisoners of war then I agree with you that they should be held and become subject of a prisoner exchange....

I stand corrected. Yes, they are illegal combatants, or actually unlawful combatants since they are not members of an actual state military and do not wear a uniform. How would you treat them then Phaedrus?

 

[Phaedrus74]

<snip>
I stand corrected. Yes, they are illegal combatants, or actually unlawful combatants since they are not members of an actual state military and do not wear a uniform. How would you treat them then Phaedrus?

You're welcome.

I think it might (usual hindsight caveats apply) have been better if they had been treated as P.O.W.'s. As it stands now the Guantanamo Bay camp has done much to erode the carefully crafted image of Western Democracies as morally superior to other states.

But, as I said, hindsight...

 

[Ladewig]

The poor oppressed Mr. Padilla should have chosen somewhere other than a planeload of American civillians to attempt to detonate his footwear.

Richard Reid attempted to detonate a small bomb on a transatlantic flight. Jose Padilla was arrested in a Chicago airport in 2002.

Padilla is probably crying like a baby every night wishing he was out of the supermax and back in gitmo.

Padilla never spent time in Gitmo. He was held in a military brig in South Carolina for 3 1/2 years before receiving a trial. He is currently serving a 17-year sentence in the Supermax federal prison in Colorado.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Richard Reid attempted to detonate a small bomb on a transatlantic flight. Jose Padilla was arrested in a Chicago airport in 2002.



Padilla never spent time in Gitmo. He was held in a military brig in South Carolina for 3 1/2 years before receiving a trial. He is currently serving a 17-year sentence in the Supermax federal prison in Colorado.

It looks like the Bushbots are malfunctioning and reciting random talking points.

 

[drkitten]

How do you believe the military tribunals are unfair?

From the US Constitition, 6th Amendment:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

• The trials are in no sense "speedy"; many of these people have been held at Gitmo for years.
• The trial is not public; most of the evidence is so classified that even the defendant cannot see it
• There is no jury, let alone one from the appropriate area
• The rules for the tribunals were not "previously ascertained by law" but are being made up on the fly
• The evidence is so classified that the defendant cannot be told of the nature and cause of the accusation
• ... nor can he be confronted by the witnesses or in many cases even informed who they are
• and several defense counsel have gone on record complaining that they cannot mount an effect defense in this circumstance.

I assume next you're going to say "but these aren't criminal cases." But, of course, if these standards are what define a fair "criminal case," the military tribunals blatantly violate the standards for fairness.... and are therefore blatantly unfair.

 

[ingoa]

Easy solution...

Do not only close the Guantanamo Camp but the base itself. The US could simply go away from Cuba. The Cubans would be happy.
Of course the US would not take the prisoners with them. Let the Cubans deal with the prisoners.

 

[CFLarsen]

I didn't know that everyone detained in Gitmo was apprehended after a long trip overseas with $10,000, a cell phone, and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives.

I'd like to see the evidence, though.

How anyone can be ignorant of the fact that the prisoners in Gitmo are not prisoners of war, but illegal combattants, is beyond me. Maybe a wee bit of research first would help the argumentation.

 

[drkitten]

You're welcome.

I think it might (usual hindsight caveats apply) have been better if they had been treated as P.O.W.'s. As it stands now the Guantanamo Bay camp has done much to erode the carefully crafted image of Western Democracies as morally superior to other states.

But, as I said, hindsight...

Except that some of us were saying that with foresight. It's not like the claim that the Gitmo detainees were not to be granted POW status wasn't both well-documented and controversial at the time. I'm sorry, but my sympathy for anyone who says "Gee, in hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have loaded and cocked the gun, pointed it at my foot, and pulled the trigger" is limited.

 

[WildCat]

When is that? Who signs the peace treaty?

Or is that another way of saying they should be locked up forever?

There doesn't have to be a peace treaty. The war is over whenever Congress declares it so and withdraws the Authorization For Use Of Military Force. At that point all detainees who are not to be tried for war crimes must be repatriated.

The Dems have had the power to end the war for the last several years but have not done so.

 

[WildCat]

From the US Constitition, 6th Amendment:

Does not apply to military tribunals.

But thanks for playing!

 

[Tailgater]

Padilla never spent time in Gitmo. He was held in a military brig in South Carolina for 3 1/2 years before receiving a trial. He is currently serving a 17-year sentence in the Supermax federal prison in Colorado.

Held by the military either way, compared to a supermax prison where some of the worst prisoners in the US go. Thanks for the correction.