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Szamboti's Missing Jolt paper

Not according to NIST.
Yes according to NIST. Sorry, you must of missed that giant report too.

Now you have no clue what NIST said.

Do you know how fast (time of) the fall is without resistance?


So no resistance the leading edge of the top section hits the bottom at 8.7 seconds. But with resistance confirmed time close to NIST is 12.08 seconds.

See, no resistance, resistance. 8.7 seconds, 12. 08 seconds.

Show me where NIST says the building came down in 8.7 seconds and you have zero resistance.

Your source?
 
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Does anyone really know that?
So you do not know how fast it falls without resistance. No clue?

It is called physics, the leading edge with no resistance,. 8.7 seconds

yes

lol

You have no idea where 13 ms came from. Do you?
 
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So you do not know how fast it falls without resistance. No clue?

It is called physics, the leading edge with no resistance,. 8.7 seconds

yes

lol

You have no idea where 13 ms came from. Do you?

It was more of a joke in reference to your poor proofreading.
 
Furthermore, at best they contradicted BZ., a simplified analysis in the first place. Not a big blow to the overall thesis that the towers collapsed onto themselves.

NIST does not model the collapse of the towers after the point of collapse initiation. They don't because they believe that Bazant had already shown that once the collapse started it would be inevitable. So the "official" explanation" for what happens after collapse initiation is Bazant's theory. Bazant's model has a 3.7 meter near free-fall descent of the upper block onto the lower block? Did Bazant come to this conclusion through precise observation or was it a mathematical assumption he made up? It appears to be the latter. Bazant wrote,

"...the upper part may be assumed to move through distance h almost in a free fall."

So here Bazant is stating that it is an assumption and therefore is not based on any evidence. Once the upper block falls 3.7 meters onto the lower block it should decelerate. Szamboti and MacQueen were looking for actual evidence that this event occurred. If not, the official explanation is not based on any evidence and all later assumptions based on the initiating event are called into question.

So it is a big blow or jolt to the overall thesis.
 
NIST does not model the collapse of the towers after the point of collapse initiation. They don't because they believe that Bazant had already shown that once the collapse started it would be inevitable. So the "official" explanation" for what happens after collapse initiation is Bazant's theory. Bazant's model has a 3.7 meter near free-fall descent of the upper block onto the lower block? Did Bazant come to this conclusion through precise observation or was it a mathematical assumption he made up? It appears to be the latter. Bazant wrote,

"...the upper part may be assumed to move through distance h almost in a free fall."

So here Bazant is stating that it is an assumption and therefore is not based on any evidence. Once the upper block falls 3.7 meters onto the lower block it should decelerate. Szamboti and MacQueen were looking for actual evidence that this event occurred. If not, the official explanation is not based on any evidence and all later assumptions based on the initiating event are called into question.

So it is a big blow or jolt to the overall thesis.

No it is not. NIST said the towers would collapse and tell you why. You can’t provide a valid argument why they are no correct.

You glom to this paper, a total failure, and you can’t support this paper either, nor do you know where they came up with 13 ms because you don’t understand the paper.



You can't present coherent counter argument based on physics and structures. To blindly support this paper exposes your complete ignorance on this topic.
 
I really would like to know what they would expect to follow collapse initiation. The only reason truthers focus on it is because they can claim investigating post initiation would show there was a CD. They still draw a big fat blank when it comes to saying what they expect to happen post collapse initiation. If anyone here has never seen a red herring, here it is.
 
It was more of a joke in reference to your poor proofreading.

The joke is you have no clue what is in the paper. The joke, you can’t even answer simple question on your own presentation. You can’t support the paper; you don’t understand engineering, or physics if you support this paper.

13 ms, how did the come up with it, or where did they get if from. Show the work, or support it independently with you own calculations. I think the jolt, the 31 Gs was over in 2.15 ms, not 13 ms. What do you think?

Or, why do you present a delusional engineering paper when you don’t understand physics or engineering? Why is the OP void of comment?
 
...
Once the upper block falls 3.7 meters onto the lower block it should decelerate. Szamboti and MacQueen were looking for actual evidence that this event occurred. If not, the official explanation is not based on any evidence and all later assumptions based on the initiating event are called into question.

So it is a big blow or jolt to the overall thesis.
The upper block did decelerate. It happened almost instantaneously and they will never see it. ... say the deceleration took about 2.15 ms.

You can model the fist impact at 3.7 meters, impact at 0.87 seconds, and the speed is 8.52 m/s, but then the speed becomes 7.86 m/s due to the impact, loosing 0.66 m/s and producing a jolt of 31 Gs. What are the frames per second on the video? To see this event we need about a frame every 1.07 ms.
Got speed? 934.58 frames per second; bet they have less than about 29 frames per second. Got engineering, sampling theory, anything other than pure hearsay and failed opinions on 9/11?

The fact is 0.397 seconds later; the speed is at 11.6 m/s just before the next impact of the model. (Not real life, the model) So they fact is the paper authors don’t understand physics or what is going on, or what they can see from the video that does not show the deceleration cause it happens while the video is too slow, not enough frames per second, not enough resolution.

The funny part, the 12.09 seconds it takes the model to fall based on physics, is just like reality of the WTC collapse. Neat how simple models can be used to get a handle of the real world event? The part you don’t understand is?

The upper block did decelerate; you have not tools, no engineering skills to figure it out. I do, NIST did, and thousand, if not millions understand 9/11. 7 years and you still have no clue.

You have picked failed engineers who are only trying to support the lie of explosives, not the application of engineering skills.
 
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Engineers/architects, please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand things, the answer to Red's question is: It did. On a floor by floor - or to be more specific, on a distance defined by vertical column length - basis. There was indeed some resistance as it met the lower sections, the energy was absorbed by the "unit" immediately below it, gave at the column connections, but did not slow the upper section by a big enough margin to significantly impact
  1. The kinetic plus gravitational potential energy already available in the collapse, and
  2. The additional energy (or is momentum the better way to think about this?) from the accretion of the now failed "floor".
There was some slowdown, but the overwhelming and accelerating upper mass would overcome that resistance until the mass met the next "intact" section, again defined by the lengths of the vertical structural elements and overcame that. The rate of increase from the accreting mass in addition to the acceleration due to gravity just plain overcame each segment.

I know that's an oversimplification, guys, but again, I'm a layman. Does that about describe it, in simplified terms?

That's about the simplest way to describe it... The towers were built rigid as a system, not as a huge single monolithic block. The lower section as a system withstood the initial collapse initiation, however the individual components that made up the whole were not alone able to halt the collapse progression. The article bulldozes right over that principal, and that's one of the most basic concepts of understanding how the design worked, it should be much easier to get correct than the math...
 
Man I love reading Beachnut's posts at the end of a long day.

****ing priceless! Keep them coming brother.
 
Darn, looks like I missed most of the fun... I saw this paper last night, and wondered who even bothered to read that rag anymore, or if anyone would actually be duped by it. I got that answer quickly. :D There's still enough left for me to take one big shot at it, however, so here it is.

Others have already commented on the editorial treachery and insufficient technique (welcome, NutCracker!) that, alone, relegate this "work" to the comedy section. But there's even more.

Let's suppose, for sake of argument, we accept their argument, we accept their method, and we accept their data analysis -- we don't, of course, but just suppose -- and we agree with their conclusion that the upper block doesn't experience the "Big Jerk." What does this mean? The authors claim that it invalidates Bazant & Zhou's progressive collapse paper. But is this true?

We've discussed Bazant & Zhou any number of times here. The criticism generally concerns their model of the collapse, rather than the calculations themselves. In their model, an admittedly simplified one, a simplified, rigid upper block is dropped the height of one story onto a simplified lower block, under the influence of gravity (and slightly opposed by the collapsing story -- a small correction is included for columns considered to be at their yield point at the start of the trial). This leads to a big bang, which as they calculate, cannot possibly be resisted by the columns on the next floor. Therefore, collapse progresses.

The authors observe that (again, playing along with their argumentation) there is no big bang. The opposing force supplied by the lower structure is a relatively continuous function (to the inadequate level of resolution present in their data, but again, play along). And this, they say, invalidates Bazant & Zhou's model, and thus their paper is wrong, collapse shouldn't have happened at all, 9/11 Was an Inside Jerb.

This is wrong. This is, in fact, undifferentiated zebra puke.

Bazant & Zhou do not require a "Big Jerk." Their model, as anyone who comprehends their paper knows, is about energy and momentum. These are aggregate quantities -- energy is force times distance, i.e. the force is integrated over a period of motion. So if there's a "Big Jerk" or not, so long as the total energy absorbtion of the lower structure is accounted for correctly, it will provide the right answer.

The authors of this paper, however, are looking at instantaneous acceleration. They aren't dealing with a quantity that averages out. So they need much more precision, precision that isn't found in Bazant & Zhou's model. It isn't needed for that problem.

So, rather than show "Bazant & Zhou is wrong," they've shown "Bazant & Zhou is a poor model of instantaneous acceleration." Big deal. That's not what we're interested in. We're interested in the collapse.

One could also argue, with equal effectiveness, that the collision between the two blocks was not axial, and therefore Bazant & Zhou is wrong. The collisions are not axial, this is true; there is no reason at all to suspect the columns above just happened to land exactly on the columns below. But, again, this doesn't matter. They model it this way because an axial impact is the best possible case if you want the structure to survive.

What Bazant & Zhou present is an upper bound. They put in all kinds of unlikely assumptions that favor collapse arrest. Axial impact is one of them. A square impact between upper and lower block is another. Mr. Szamboti and Dr. MacQueen are, really, taking issue with one of those assumptions, an assumption that we already knew from Day One was unrealistic.

So, what happens if we put in more realism?

We know the impact was not square. This is because the upper blocks tilted first. The tilt smears out each and every impact.

Suppose each floor was 3.2 meters high. The structures were 64 meters across. So, if I tilt the structure by an angle of θ = sin-1(3.2 / 64) = 2.9 degrees, the bottom edge will be tilted over the height of an entire floor. At this amount of tilt or higher, at every instant, the upper block is in contact with the lower floors at the top, bottom, and everything in between. Were the upper blocks tilted by 2.9 degrees or more? You bet they were.

As a result, we don't expect a "Big Jerk" in the first place. At any given instant, the upper block is failing columns gradually. There will be some that are just coming into contact, some that are reaching their buckling point, and some that have completely failed. There is no "Big Jerk" but a steady loading and failing of individual elements. As a result, there's no reason to suspect a sudden change in the structure's resistance. It is a fairly smooth phenomenon.

In fact, Mr. Szamboti and Dr. MacQueen's observation is evidence in favor of a gravity-driven collapse. Think about it. They say there's no "Big Jerk." I agree with them. What this means is that the lower structure, in addition to being hit with an enormous force, was hit asymmetrically. Had there been a "Big Jerk," that would mean the structure, across its entire breadth, was resisting at once, rather than being hit piecemeal, one row of columns at a time. The square impact is more likely to survive. The absence of the "Big Jerk" is only further evidence that Bazant & Zhou overestimated the structure's strength with their model, and therefore the collapse is even less in doubt than it was.

QED.

This is just another black eye for Dr. Jones and his ridiculous self-promotion. One would have to be deeply non-technical to even consider this argument plausible. This is evident from the follow-up questions being asked by the duped:

I'm not quite sure what you're rambling on about in your rant, but the primary question the paper is addressing is how did the rigid upper block separate itself entirely from the lower portion of the building and then crush everything below it, maintaining freefall speed?

Why didn't the other 90% of the building offer any resistance to slow the descent?

These questions are really not coherent. Regarding the first question, again, only in the model does the upper block "separate itself entirely." What really happens is a lower floor failed, didn't fail at once, and this introduced a tilt. The remaining members on that particular floor couldn't hold the upper block, since tilting would shear any remaining connections, and the collapse begins. Bazant & Zhou are only estimating the initial energy, and their estimate is a fair one.

There are numerous other factors they didn't include that make collapse even more likely. The tilt is one of them. Another is that the next few floors to be hit were dramatically weakened due to impacts and fires. And if the second floor doesn't catch the collapse, there is no hope whatsoever for the third floor to catch it. The descending mass is speeding up over time, not slowing down.

Regarding the second question, the "other 90%" does resist the collapse. That's why the collapse takes about 12 seconds instead of about 9 seconds. This resistance translates into absorption of 50% of the gravitational energy. That's a lot of resistance.

If you're asking "why didn't the other 90% arrest the initial collapse," it's very simple, and Dr. Bazant already answered this in his reply to Dr. Jones and cohorts, in a peer-reviewed (really peer-reviewed, not JONES peer-reviewed) letter. The reason is that the individual floors cannot transmit a force greater than their yield strength, no matter how hard they get hit.

Here's a strained analogy: Take a cinder block. Put an empty soda can on top of it. Now drop a bowling ball on the soda can. The cinder block will only see a small force while the can crumples -- no more force than the can will support. Once the bowling ball is done squashing the can and hits the cinder block, the block suddenly sees a much, much higher force.

This is true no matter how much you reinforce the base below the can. Similarly, the WTC Towers collapses really do hit only one floor at a time. Really. The individual floors push down at their yield strength, and that's it. That yield strength, as Bazant & Zhou demonstrate, is simply not enough at any time to stop the collapse. So the individual floor fails, the debris falls some more, picks up speed, and it all happens again. Except it happens more or less continuously. It isn't completely flat.

Now, I have a question of my own for RedIbis:

Why do you allow yourself to be duped like this?

I understand you lack the technical insight. But consider the source. You know Dr. Jones's "journal" is no journal at all, but instead a mouthpiece for his own club. You also know that his papers are a joke. They've put out over a hundred now, and with the exception of those from Dr. Greening, GregoryUrich, and others trying to correct them, they're all garbage.

You know that Graeme MacQueen, in that very journal, tried to claim the FDNY must have been told WTC 7 could collapse, despite his own paper concluding that at least seven of them must have figured it out on their own. You also know that Mr. Szamboti (posting here as realcddeal) pins his entire conspiracy theory on a baffling rejection of reality, namely that the inward bowing seen and well documented by NIST is a lie, and only appeared at the instant of collapse, despite being shown the photographic evidence repeatedly. (I stopped responding to Mr. Szamboti shortly after this episode, where in a performance worthy of McCarthy, he accuses Gravy of being a "Dual Citizen," and y'all know what that means.)

So why? Why do you listen to these frauds, after all this time? How many times do they have to embarrass themselves for you to learn from it? 100 wasn't enough, will it take 1,000? Or is this the one that convinces you to stop buying their nonsense?

What will it take?
 
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That's about the simplest way to describe it... The towers were built rigid as a system, not as a huge single monolithic block. The lower section as a system withstood the initial collapse initiation, however the individual components that made up the whole were not alone able to halt the collapse progression. The article bulldozes right over that principal, and that's one of the most basic concepts of understanding how the design worked, it should be much easier to get correct than the math...
The other thing the laymen miss is a matter of terminology.
"Rigid Body Analysis" has nothing to do with stiffness!
Amazingly enough, we do it to track the motion of the center of gravity, for simplification purposes.
You then transform acceleration, velocity, and displacement back out to where you need it.
IT has nothing to do with "rigidity", and everything to do with physics.
You can do RB analysis on a blob of falling water of water, over a small distance
 
Darn, looks like I missed most of the fun... I saw this paper last night, and wondered who even bothered to read that rag anymore, or if anyone would actually be duped by it. I got that answer quickly. :D There's still enough left for me to take one big shot at it, however, so here it is...
(Rest of the fine post snipped)

Ryan, thank you. I was reading some of the previous threads involving the Bazant model, and was going to get back to the MacQueen-Szamboti paper just as soon as I got over finding issues that bothered me every other paragraph (if nobody else has noticed, my previous comments were generated after only 2 pages of their work; I hadn't really read the meat yet, I had only lightly skimmed the entire work initially, then went back and really started reading. 2 pages, and I already found things that bugged me...). Anyway, it's useful to have someone better versed than me actually apply what Bazant, Zhou, etc. were really trying to say to what MacQueen and Szamboti were trying to paint their work as. That would've taken a bit of work, and you've saved me from much of it.

Furthermore, it's heartening to see that I as a layman may not understand the details - how could I, given my lack of education in the field - but at least, due to everyone else here I get the gist. I figured there was misrepresentation in their paper; note how I was annoyed at some of their initial framing (BTW, did I identify things correctly in those former posts?). But I didn't have the exact details figured out yet. Explanations like yours help tremendously. Thanks for confirming with your post that I at least identified something right, superficial as it was, and that I've learned something here in the past couple of years after all.

The other thing the laymen miss is a matter of terminology.
"Rigid Body Analysis" has nothing to do with stiffness!
Amazingly enough, we do it to track the motion of the center of gravity, for simplification purposes.
You then transform acceleration, velocity, and displacement back out to where you need it.
IT has nothing to do with "rigidity", and everything to do with physics.
You can do RB analysis on a blob of falling water of water, over a small distance

Speaking of learning something, that's new for me. Thanks.
 
I figured there was misrepresentation in their paper; note how I was annoyed at some of their initial framing (BTW, did I identify things correctly in those former posts?)

Your other observations in this thread are correct.

Even if the upper block came apart completely on impact, it would still overload the lower block, and would not "flow harmlessly" or whatever pathetic fantasy Dr. MacQueen is trying to sell -- the debris has the same mass and the same momentum as the intact block, and thus will cause the same effect. The only net advantage is if crumbled, a slightly greater amount would spill over the side, but since the Towers are 64 meters across, very little of it is positioned to do so.

They consistently try to treat the lower block as a monolithic entity -- this is talking out of both sides of their mouths. If you do treat the entire lower block, you can theoretically make an energy argument that, if applied slowly enough, the energy of the falling upper block can strain the entire 90+ lower stories, and thus they can hold it. But that's only true if the force applied never exceeds yield strength, which it does -- the event is too fast for any such optimal, gentle loading to equally affect the entire structure. This paper, however, concerns accelerations and forces, and therefore cannot make such an argument.

The lower block indeed resists the collapse -- it slows it down. It simply isn't strong enough to bring it to a stop. The slowing is gradual since the collapse is chaotic, and you don't have orderly floors blowing out all in a single millisecond. Instead, the debris front is not flat, and columns are failing pretty much continuously.

Congratulations! Trained in the sciences or not, you are better at this than all of their "peer reviewers."
 
Your other observations in this thread are correct.
Thank you.

They consistently try to treat the lower block as a monolithic entity -- this is talking out of both sides of their mouths. If you do treat the entire lower block, you can theoretically make an energy argument that, if applied slowly enough, the energy of the falling upper block can strain the entire 90+ lower stories, and thus they can hold it. But that's only true if the force applied never exceeds yield strength, which it does -- the event is too fast for any such optimal, gentle loading to equally affect the entire structure. This paper, however, concerns accelerations and forces, and therefore cannot make such an argument.

There's a smaller point, though: It's sort of hypocritical to complain about the upper block being treated monolithically in Bazant's model (where it doesn't matter), then turn around and do exactly that for the lower block (where it does). But beyond even that, it just makes plain sense that things break at their connection points, and individual floors would be those connection points.

Congratulations! Trained in the sciences or not, you are better at this than all of their "peer reviewers."

Chemistry major undergrad (Bachelor of Arts, not science, so admittedly it's the less rigorous one), and Bio minor. Plus Journalism (don't ask). But it shouldn't matter; I could be a music or Fine Arts major (or the unfairly slammed major at nearly every college: Business :D), but the logic is intact no matter what. I don't think anyone needs to have anything beyond the basic science prerequisites any college student, nevermind graduate has in order to understand the basic thrust of the collapse model, even if the math is a bit beyond recall or ability. And to be honest, I don't even think anyone needs anything beyond high school science to understand those basics, once explained once for them. It takes a bit beyond that to truly understand the math, or the specific justifications of individual elements (for example, the fact that the math does indeed demonstrate that the individual floors do not subtract enough from the falling upper block to even match, let alone negate the gravitational acceleration), but to understand just the basic thrust? No, only a high-school level of science should be sufficient.

Blech... my own opinion, of course.
 
Why is the OP void of comment?

RedIbis's posts always are. Expecting us to do all the work while he just sits back and spouts snarky one-liners every once in a while.

You showed that he never read his own paper, which is quite telling. RedIbis, why do you ask us to read when you're not going to yourself?
 
Why do you allow yourself to be duped like this?

Good question. Why does anyone get duped by this? Even smart people, like Robert Bowman, believe in some version of 9/11 woo. Bowman got his PhD from CalTech. Isn't that your alma mater? I wonder what made him fly off the handle.
 
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